Teen commits suicide in front of webcam

Agreed... this is a tragedy and one that should not have been broadcast over the Internet. I'm unsure which is worse - that it happened while being broadcast, or the imbeciles egging him on to off himself.

It takes guts to commit suicide? Wow. OTM may be a low-life but you are an idiot of the highest order.

Starmeeting--Yes, in a perverse kind of way "it takes guts to commit suicide".  If you question this I suggest you consult "Suicide: A Study in Sociology" by Emile Durkheim.  Now as to whether I am an idiot or not, that might be debatable.  But not by you.  Someone who obviously doesn't read and puts his mouth in gear without using his brain.  Mr. Tenney--I don't really care if my original comment was removed.  If fact, I knew it would be.  But to allow someone to bring such foolish politics into this issue is far worse than my challenging him to do what he has not the character or nature to do.  What is perverse about our system is that we will allow such comments, especially if they are one-sided, and at the same time disallow other comments on the other side.  Thus, I have no respect for you nor this system, and nothing you can say will hinder or deter me.

A woman who answered the phone at Biggs' home and identified herself as his sister said the family was still dealing with his death and declined immediate comment.

Why does the media feel it is their right to pry into private family affairs like this. Yes, sadly he made his death public, but the family is grieving. LEAVE THEM ALONE.

My condolences go to the family and friends.

I knew him and he will be missed by everybody.  I don't get the whole thing about his ipod being stolen but it doesn't matter now I guess.  He was truly an hero!!!  RIP bro

Very tragic indeed, and very sad and shameful that people would encourage this youth to kill himself.

To waukone's statement; ....... "Anytime someone says they want to kill themselves, they are in the grip of mental illness".

Most of the time probably yes. There are people that have extremely painful conditions and sometimes, after all else fails they decide/choose with a very clear mind end their own lives.

Being a teen has always been difficult and the circumstance's of life will never change. I don't know what the (back story) is here, this young adult may have had all kinds of terrible things happen in his short life of only 19 years.

There is a brite side to this story, at least he didn't walk into a mall, school, workplace, or any other place where he could have killed many people he only took his life and no others.

The next thing we will see is an actual murder on a cam, someone invites someone over and kills the unsuspecting person, then committs suicide. It's just a matter of time.

People, sadly enough, have their own dark and misunderstood, reasons to commit suicide. My own Mother hung herself when I was only 15....no rhyme or reason, no note, nothing. And to be honest, I've tried it myself several times, but obviously the attempts failed and I do NOT advocate anyone trying it, I'm just saying that rational and normal people sometimes don't want to live for whatever reason(s), and in my opinion, they have the "right" to LIVE the way they want to, and die the way they want to as well. Doin' it online on a webcam is kinda out there though, both for the person committing the act, and for those that want to sit and watch it.

waukone:  "Desturbing - people encouraging someone to commit suicide?"  I agree this is very desturbing,  I also wonder about legal culpability, since there is already a woman who is on trial for internet offense's in relation to a teen's subsequent suicide.  These people activily encouraged a young man to take his life, I believe they should be identified, located and prosecuted, there must be some law that addresses this, and if there isn't, perhaps it is time one is adopted.

It hasn't fallen. Throughout time, angsty young men have always enjoyed watching others suffer. Probably, they always will.

Holly-I agree. Saddly, there is little chance charges would be filed. Emergancy intervention is not legally required by law as in France. All that can be repeated is, any suicidal ideation by anyone must be taken seriously. Maybe someday we will prosecute people for being idots. I lost my best friend to suicide. We just thought he was joking. He was not. I am haunted by what I found.

I agree with you, it has fallen.  When I was in college, walking home from class one night, I witnessed members of a fraternity (lauded the previous day in a newspaper article for their humanitarian work) yelling for a person on an overpass to jump, and that their life wasn't worth it.

Thankfully, the police talked the person down.  But that's stayed with me my whole life.  The thought that humanity could be so callous and crass as to enjoy and openly invite another person ending their life.  There aren't words to describe it.

Holly, Have you heard of the Roman Colosseum? How about the rich war watchers during the Civil War?

People have been chearing on the deaths of others for as long as humans have kept historical records.

And that makes it okay?

Did I say it was OK?

Try reading what she said and then read my response. I was refuting her idea that society has fallen to some sort of new low. it hasn't as my reply clearly shows.

"People have been chearing on the deaths of others for as long as humans have kept historical records"

I suppose we thought we had evolved and become more civilized over time, obviously not.

I will agree with that.

Isabella:

 suppose we thought we had evolved and become more civilized over time, obviously not.

We have evolved as a society.  A very few centuries ago, in most of what is today the "civilized" world, children who were "weak" or had birth defects were exposed on hillsides for wild animals to devour.  Today we either abort them in a much less messy manner, or raise them to have whatever quality of life we can provide, as we choose.  But as a species we still rubberneck at car crashes hoping to see a body, don't we?

Point taken, tp. Parents should know what's going on with their children and what they're doing on the internet.

tp-I'm glad I scrolled down before I posted, because you raised the point that first came into my head: where was his family? Parents, siblings? 

It is unfortunate that some segments of our society enjoy watching the suffering of others, but that in no way absolves parents from being involved in their children's lives. If he posted on his blog, his parents should have known their son was in trouble. 

20/20 hind sight.   The signs stick out like a sore thumb after the fact.  It can never happen to me.................

He had been diagnosed as bipolar so they had already sought help but I don't think there is much you can do once someone becomes that determined.  You might delay it but some of them I think get beyond reach.

Let's be very honest here. Parents now are way too preoccupied, busy, working, resting, carrying on with 'their' business to "stay" closely involved with their own children. Isn't it typically the child that runs into their room, closing the door to the outside world (family) for privacy or to just to get away (or that's what they usually say). I'm not 'that' old that I remember  closing the door in MY parents house meant that I was "up to something" and it just wasn't permitted. Nowadays kids have w-a-y too much freedom to decide their own choices totally independant from their parents. For centuries, there have been 'spectators' observing killings and death. They cheered,roared just to see blood. I'm speaking of the Romans. Centuries have passed and I see that some human beings have not psychologically advanced to a civilized and compassionate level. I feel badly for this young man to become so desparate and to need to express his despair to an audiance. I would NOT have taken that so lightly-even if he had comtemplated suicide before fearing that "this" time he just might be serious. His family must be devestated and full of guilt because they didn't know what was going on. They need our sympathy not our wrath. Pray for them all.

I'm glad I scrolled down before I posted, because you raised the point that first came into my head: where was his family? Parents, siblings? 

Walter

It isn’t always apparent that people are depressed, or to the point of suicide! Most people with depression are very good at hiding it.

It isn’t always apparent that people are depressed, or to the point of suicide! Most people with depression are very good at hiding it.

They had caught him in the act several times. I don't know what else they needed to realize he was a danger to himself.

An excerpt from his sister's letter to the community:

His attempts and threats were exhausting, even to me. But it's part of the illness. The only reason they were "attempts" is because he had been caught before succeeding.

If they became exhausting, that is the point when family needs to realize that his problem is more than they can handle. At that point his care needed to be escalated.

and good luck trying to get care in this country... If the family had any amount of money (meaning lower middle class or up), they might not have been able to afford escalated care and were doing the best they can...

Indeed, i do not mean to imply that they are solely to blame since i dont know what their situation is, and i dont know what they've gone through to try and help him.

I am, however of the mindset that if it truly matters, you'll find a way to make it happen. I realize this is easier said than done, but even with the lack of affordable care in this country, the options are there. I'd like to think his life was worth more than the value of his potential care.

Well said... and I agree, Common-Sense.

Sometimes it is very difficult to get the treatment these people need.  My sister is a good case.  She is so severe she needs hospitalized but the requirements to get her hospitalized are so difficult and lengthy on top of the fact that she is prone to disappear and not communicate... it is just frustrating.

It feels like chasing your tail.

Charged the web viewers with accessory because they watched the suicide?  So, if a crowd of people watched someone jump off a building you'd charge them, too?

Dan....where in the process of suicide did you find a modicum of "safety"? 

And at this very time, in another MSN article, Obama and cast are praising the use of technology and it's many uplifting facets.

I guess they missed this story.

ClintHorace

Please  understand  that technology don't have anything to do with what he did to himself.The site is not responsible for people actions, this kids today love attention and they will do anything to get it  and in those web site a lot of the thing that happen are so detach to your personal life that most people take thing as a joke nothing to be serious about. he and his family are the only ones responsible for this tragedy, Yes my heart go to them but i wont sit here and try to blame someone else for the lack of responsibilities on the part of the family.

Mr. Cantrell:

You evidently know absolutely nothing about mental illness--or compassion for your fellow man---common decency.

Dan,

Your comment makes me think you would be one of those whom would be egging someone on! For you to believe that a person would commit suicide because they don’t want to live in a competitive world, or they want to be spoon fed and not make decisions for themselves is ignorant. You can’t even begin to understand what depression is like or what it can do to someone! I pray that you or someone you love never has to experience this debilitating disease, but than again, maybe I won’t! Maybe I will pray for God to show you just how tragic depression really is.

"You can’t even begin to understand what depression is like or what it can do to someone!"

Well said, Kim E.  Dan does NOT have a clue. I've dealt with depression most of my adult life and it's become more debilitating over the past 10 years.  It's had nothing to do with not wanting to live in a competitive world, being spoon fed or not wanting to make decisions for myself... I constantly think of suicide and will more than likely decide when the time is right, if it comes to that.  The ONLY reason I have not enacted upon this wish is that I have a young son that I love more than I ever thought I could love anything or anyone... and I know he needs me and I have a responsibility to raise him to adulthood.  I have accepted that responsibility, but it is draining remaining strong and carrying on day to day so that he does not see or know how I feel.  No-one takes care of me and I make my own decisions... including the decision to end my life if I choose to do so.  Dan, it's people like you that feed my disappointment in a world such as this... that make me not want to be a part of it.  But I am still here, and I'm "functioning normally", and trying to live a good and honest life, and challenge people like you and your opinion.  I feel sorry for the loss of this young man's family, and I do not hold them responsible.  An adult or 19 year old is going to do what he wants to do, and he did it.  I don't like the idea of the venue he chose (I consider suicide a much more private affair and act, personally), and I think it's pretty gruesome about the audience... Hopefully he's at peace now and if there is anything beyond this life, or a second life, I hope he'll be happier.

Colleen,

You really need to get help! Trust me, it really can work! I think of so much more you would lose if you were no longer around. You say you have a young son who you want to raise, right?? What about those grandchildren who would love to have their grandmother around?? What about your son who would love for you to be around for his wedding?? what about you son and his wife who would love for you to be around for the birth of their child?? There are so many reasons not to take your life, Colleen? I would give anything to have had a child and to be a grandmother and see my kids get married, and to have christmas and my house and the list goes on and on. I am going to e-mail mail you and I hope you will answer me. I would really like to talk to you, Please?????

Thank you, Kim... Your energy in wanting to help others is apparent and appreciated. Truly.  I am getting help and I 'm sure that, as a result, I am still here.  Sometimes feel like a guinea pig trying the different courses of med's (something I resisted for many years).  I have a great psychiatrist and a new therapist who so far is a good match for me.  They are my support system.  As well as my son.  Unbeknownest to him, he is what keeps me going.  He has Asperger's Syndrome and while challenging, is a true joy and the blessing in my life; the most incredible experience.  I am grateful for that.  I am sorry you did not have the opportunity to have a child... I am sure that you would have been an excellent, loving parent.  While I have my own issues and demons, that is one thing I can say with confidence... I am a very good parent and my son helps me to see that every day.  This is probably all wrong for this post, so yes, I will answer your email. Probably not today, but I will answer. Thank you Kim E. 

And do what when they find them?

Charge them with being scum?

And Paul William Tenny, you call your post what civil dialogue sounds like?  Agreeing with an uncivil comment with inoffensive words still makes your comment hypocritical when you consider your own censorship of crudity.

What those viewers did was immature, but no more criminal than when members of a crowd yell "jump" to someone on a building ledge.  In fact, unless the victim responded to each remark, you couldn't even prove which comments he saw.

Actually, in many states people in the crowd that yell jump to someone on a building ledge can and have been arrested, freedom of speech does not apply to inciting violence or causing harm.  There are laws that address those actions and it is time those laws were applied to the internet.

You should report this. the police will find it very interesting in the development of their case. he was seeking attention because he was screaming in pain!!! that moderator is an @!$%# and should be thrown to the depths of hell.

If a moderator had to respond to every user on their board that said they were going to kill themselves, it'd make their job damn near impossible. Anyone can type "I'm going to kill myself" into a textbox. It's not the moderator's job to do a psychatric evaluation of crazy users. How in the world could he have known the boy was actually disturbed? Let's not go blaming the wrong people here.

Absolutely report it.

Thank you n2L for setting the record straight. That  is an honorable comment to contribute.

immediate action for what? anti-suicide laws? or do you just want turn the internet off?

There are some states with anti-suicide laws. Unfortunately, I believe that attempted suicide in those places may be punishable by a very ironic death.

This case illustrates a very sad state of Internet laws and the lack of protection provided not only to children but to the population in general. The ignorance has promoted an environment that simulates the unprotected wild west even though we are in modern society. The lack of protection in law contributes to that environment in that we have new stories of horror related to the internet occurring.

All need to understand this in combination with news of lack of action within our legislative branches and infiltration by special interests who make money from the internet being so free and the environment of exposure of one's misfortune like this one in the news.

There is an even more important and first step cause in which we must deal with Staking, Harassment, Defamation, Conspiracies on the internet in order to have a lawful order and web environment.

We need to investigate and prosecute when the evidence is in black and white and every other color. Google Megan Meirs and see why we need something more in the middle that reflects current U.S. codes we have for current codes of Defamation, Stalking, Harassment and Conspiracy and that one can report and immediately turn off any internet connection in which such activities occur so that it does not poison the wells of the internet and that protects all citizens alike.

Tell that to the Obama camp as they find new ways to manipulate the public via the internet and "technology"!

Go ahead!

Exit from this board and click on the MSN story.

Give change a chance. The man does not even take office until late January, and has already voiced against special interest and corrupted governement which highly contributes to this epidemic.

And unless your local, state and federal legislators and his camp hear your voice on internet issues your fate will be determined by the advocacy groups driven by donations of special interests wanting to not give you any rights on the internet so that it can pave the way for the special interest to let loose the big business internet Stalking, Defamation, Harrrassment and Conspiracy steam roller. 

;)

Clint:

1)that is not on topic

2)Communicating using the newest means of reaching people is not manipulation.

Phantom,

You seem to be proposing censorship of the Internet.  Censorship by whom?  Every censorship measure is driven by a "special interest" with its own agenda.  And censor against what?  Conspiracy theories?  One or two of them might even be true.  Who knows?  And why should they be any more illegal on the Internet than in physical print?

It sounds as if you want to follow the example of Austraila, where federal legislators are proposing mandatory filtering at the ISP level, not only against patently illegal content (child porn, gambling) but also against other sites that one interest group or another finds distasteful.  I believe the sponsoring legislator explicitly mentioned pro-euthanasia and pro-anorexia sites as examples of content that the government could demand be filtered.

Our press went through a "wild west" phase at one time and survived.  We'll get through the Internet's growing pains without a governmental nanny, too.

I respect your opinions, but, in my humble opinion, I think that creating laws to "protect us" are wrong.  As cable TV evolved, the Internet is still evolving along with technology, in stages. 

Phantom White Knight

This case illustrates a very sad state of Internet laws and the lack of protection provided not only to children but to the population in general...........we need something more in the middle that reflects current U.S. codes we have for current codes of Defamation, Stalking, Harassment and Conspiracy ........and that protects all citizens alike.

As with Cable TV, I don't want to be protected from something I pay for. In order to access the ISP of my choice, I pay $68/mo. There are already protections in place for censorship to protect children, minors. Parents have to play a role.  Educators do, as well.  There will always be very sad and isolated incidents in society, such as Megan Meirs. Yes, it was horrible. I'm not insensitive to her family. I'm just saying, in a very simplified way, that I don't think you should start governing 99% of the good for 1% of the evil.

As far as laws reflecting current U.S. codes, we already have them: The U.S. Judicial System. These cases are playing out in our courts as we speak, one case as a time, just as it should be. It is by these cases that precedence is set.  Issues that occur out of the U.S. would never be prosecutable.

And unless your local, state and federal legislators and his camp hear your voice on internet issues

That works both ways for keeping the Internet free-of Govt. AND taxation. I urge anyone who agrees to do as I already do and occasionally drop an email to their state and federal representatives to voice their opinions. I'm constantly amazed that I often get responses to mine and know that they are actually read.

Barry-NJ

Our press went through a "wild west" phase at one time and survived.  We'll get through the Internets growing pains without a governmental nanny, too.

ABSOLUTELY. BRAVO!

Behind at your screen,

1) tough tittie

2) I beg to differ!

Which should make us wonder who is the more mentally ill, the one who took his life or the ones who watch with such indifference or just wanting to experience something new......................

What was that movie with Jim Carey? The Truman Show? It was the one where everyone watched him from the time he grew up? People watching things from behind a screen, this time instead of a TV, it's a PC.  Maybe that's one of the problems.........

Girl-739004

Thanks for being brave enough to share your experiences.  It seems apparent to me that he was reaching out for help. People who fully intend to commit suicide as a rule don't want an audience.  The story doesn't indicate that he was joking around with anyone or taking it lightly to make them question his intent.

First I want to say this is very sad and my sympathy go out to this young man's family. From the story, it seems this happened in the middle of the night, and from what I surmise, he did not live at home so they should not be blamed as some seem to want to do on here.

Bipolar Disorder, a much nicer name for Manic Depression, is quite complex and affects people with different degrees of severity and complexity. It is managed with treatments such as group and individual therapy, outpatient hospitalization (similar to day care), weekly or periodic counseling/psychotherapy as prescribed, and other treatment. However, it is still successful only if medication if taken properly, and even then, medication management can take a long time to be successful, just as blood pressure medications must be experimented with to find the right one that works. Some people, particularly young people, will quit taking their medicine under the mistaken notion that they don't need it anymore because they feel better, or because they don't like the way it makes them feel, and won't give it time to work. For some sufferers, something as simple as going through a few nights of insomnia/sleep deprivation can trigger a depressive episode when combined with the right circumstances. It's not a simple illness to treat for everyone. I know. I have also lived with this illness for years.  Girl, just as you, if it will help educate one person to understand more, it does not bother me to discuss it openly.  I'm grateful to have found a good physician.

     First off, like most people on here, I want to offer my condolences and sympathy to the friends and family of this young man.  Also, I find it quite disturbing that not only was there an audience to this tragedy, but some actually encouraged him.  That is completely reprehensible.  While I don't believe the people who watched this and egged him on should be prosecuted, I do hope that kharma or some other type of universal justice plays out in their lives.  (I know, that's a little existential but I do believe eventually you get what you deserve.)  The depravity required to encourage someone who is obviously mentally unstable to commit suicide while you hang around and watch the show is, fortunately, well beyond my comprehension.

     To Girl-739004 and Bonnie-460647, I commend your courage to share your personal challenges with mental illness in an effort to inform the rest of us.  I most certainly hope that you both are recieving and benifitting from proper treatment.  I would like to ask you a question Bonnie, if you don't mind.  You generally described a multi-faceted course of treatment including group and individual counselling, potential out-patient treatment, and regular phychotherapy as well as the use of medications.  My question is about the medication aspect.  I know very little about anti-depressants but I believe I recall hearing that some of them, Zoloft comes to mind, can induce suicidal thoughts as a side effect.  I was just wondering if you had more information on the subject.  I also was wondering if you were currently taking some sort of anti-depressant and what you thought about it.  I.E. does it help, make you feel better, make you feel blah?  Just curious, you needn't get into anything too personal if you would prefer not to.  I guess the main reason I brought it up was that I was wondering if the medication the young man was taking actually hightened his suicidal tendencies.  Obviously we'll never know the answer to that question but I think it's something that should be considered.  And since I really don't know much about the subject I hope you can give me a little insight since not only are you much more informed then myself but someone who has first-person experience dealing with such issues.  I thank you in advance and wish you a good day.

Sure, Daniel, I don't mind. It saved my life. Abraham's death created this page. Maybe in some small way, my post, along with everyone who interacts on here can make an impact. Maybe his death will at least enlighten someone who might not understand that bipolar problems are not a simple issue. I have been reading more details today about Abraham. There are different stories now about what he took. According to ABC News today, Benzodiazepine and Opiates, only one that he had a prescription for. I believe, Xanax. There was another story that said three different prescriptions, so it's still not clear. The Xanax really surprises me if it was prescribed to him for bipolar, as it is a depressant and suppresses the central nervous system. Normally, it's used for anxiety and insomnia, and even as a muscle relaxer. It's highly addictive just like Valium. I know a lot about it because my Father was addicted to it. I don't think it CAUSES suicidal tendencies as it's not a psychotic medication. Whatever opiate they are referring to wouldn't be either. BUT, if someone is already suffering from depression, that is a bad combination.

You ask me how it helps, makes me feel. When medication works, it just makes me feel normal. It gives me a sense of well being, something that's hard to explain to someone who doesn't suffer from clinical depression. No euphoria or high. Just grounded. I took Zoloft for several years. It never bothered me but wasn't very effective after a couple of years. I've taken Cymbalta, which made me have very suicidal thoughts, but I am fortunate that I recognized it. I recognized it because My Dr. has been vigilant to always stress potential side effects, as well as make himself available 24/7 on a crisis line. It's the only medicine that has ever done that to me. I have a friend who has taken it for two years and it has changed her life. I currently take Wellbutrin XL along with another medication that is a mood stabilizer called Topamax. When I started taking Wellbutrin he started me on a low dose and gradually increased it. He told me what to expect. It spaced me out but that is a side effect that stopped once I took it for a couple of weeks. It's getting past that point that most people don't understand. They don't like that feeling. These medicines take several months before they actually work effectively. People give up on them if they don't get instant relief. But it's during that time that I think must be dangerous, particularly for young people, from what I understand. I think it must affect them differently than someone older like me.

As for myself, I refuse to take narcotics, and I always have. There are so many anti-psychotic medications being used to treat bipolar disorder now. Their purpose is to stop the cycling of mood swings that can be severe. They are very specific drugs from different classes, affecting a specific part of the brain's chemistry. Even the literature that comes with them will tell you they don't fully understand why they work. What works for me could make someone else suicidal. The drugs have to be supervised. That's why the therapy and frequent visits are so important. Group or individual therapy keeps one grounded by interaction with others having shared experiences. You don't feel alone with problems and can talk it out. It's been my experience that what's most important is that drs. follow pts. on new meds with frequent visits. My Doctor has always scheduled me to return in 3 wks-1 month with any new medicine and then depending on the visit may have me come back again at the same interval until he's certain I am doing well. Never longer. I'm not a teenager either.

I really didn't intend to write a book. I appreciate your interest Daniel. I'm glad to share with anyone who's interested. For anyone who wants more information on medications, bipolar disorder and more, I did some searching and I found a great site. Here is a link.

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/understanding_antidepressant_medications/article_em.htm

I have made this point several times about the verbal violence on Newsvine but no one seems to care.Thank you for bringing this up, i don't feel so lonely anymore.................

I think that the web is fast becoming a society in its' own right, and as such we should start creating laws and methods of enforcing those laws, to protect and serve the web community.  Acts of violence can and I believe have been done in cyberspace, as well as theft, slander, and vandalism. It is time that we recognise these issues and address them appropriately.

In reading the updated article, it seems this kid was taking anti-depressants. There have been so many reports lately of those having the opposite effect (thoughts of suicide) on teens, it's amazing he was still taking them. One has to wonder if they actually contributed to the outcome of this story.

Actually, I think the article said benzodiazepines, which are basically Valium, Xanax and clonazepine. They are used more for anxiety; they do nothing for depression. And, obviously, if taken in high doses they can be lethal.

Opiates would not be used for bipolar disease and benzodiazepines might be used acutely in mania but not in the depressive phases because they would make depression worse and decrease judgement and actually make this poor fellow susceptible to sugestion.  In bipolar disorder, the patient must be unusally compliant to be helped; many take their drugs improperly for one reason or another.  At the age of 19, it is extremely hard for parents to control or help a person, although they unreasonably blame themselves for bad outcomes.

Mental illness is so common, so hard to understand, so undertreated, and so often denied due to stigma.  The whole society needs a lot more education. 

Not only should the unsympathetic persons be triply shamed, but they should seek help for their own mental problems.

Silicon Valley Dr

Mental illness is so common, so hard to understand, so undertreated, and so often denied due to stigma.  The whole society needs a lot more education

That is so well spoken.  That's why I openly discuss it. I was diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder a number of years ago. Prior to that, I was a high functioning, typical Type A overachiever. I was as a Branch Manager for a major corporation. Compared to the reactions I have received from former co-workers, a few friends and people in general, dealing with the illness itself has been a piece of cake.  People have no idea how their reactions affect the person who is dealing with it.  Even though my intelligence has never diminished, my self esteem vanished for quite a long time.  The inability to perform complex tasks requiring tons of paperwork and concentration that I used to do in my sleep was hard to accept, but the dismissive glances of others were heartbreaking, coming from family members who didn't take things I said seriously.  It was as though I had suddenly become less valued. Stigma is the perfect word.  It's hard to imagine what this young man might have been going through.

Celtic....those are all very good thoughts!  My friend had a very "methodical" suicide as well.  Probably nothing could have stopped him on my part...but...as the one still here on this mortal coil....  When faced with the dynamics and results of a suicide you are first burdened with the guilt of  "what signs should I have seen" and "what could I have done".  Eventually as the grief and "I'll never see that person again" cycle starts then anger and resentment towards the self-centeredness of the act begans to creep in.   You feel robbed by that person of their presence and angry for the grief they've left behind.  Six years later I still look at my friends picture on my wall and ask "what we're you thinking?" and how did I miss it?

Celtic,

You don't seem to get what a chemical imbalance might have to do with it, such as Bipolar or Manic Depressive disorder. If he had one, as so many people do, medication could and most likely have cleared his mind a bit. He certainly would not have been beyond "help".  Of course we will never know.

I firmly believe that committing suicide is the cowards way out.  It is entirely selfish and cruel.

Celtic,

What an ignorant remark! In fact, your whole comment was ignorant! You have no idea whatsoever what depression is or how it affects a person! Comments like yours really piss me off!!!! Why don’t you knowledge yourself on the subject before making comments?? What astonishes me, is you believe that people suffering from depression have control over their thoughts and feelings.

Ditto.

I think it's more a matter of drumming up the courage vs a cowardice act.  Yes, there might be loved ones who feel angry towards the person who ends their life, but those are their issues. 

True depression; control over one's thoughts and feelings is difficult and erratic. Sounds like Celtic might be a Tom Cruise Scientology follower...

Thanks, Kim, for speaking up!

Kim and Colleen

While I agree with you that depression is a serious and debilitating disease that can severely affect someones ability to make rational decisions, I would have to disagree that Celtics comment was ignorant.  I don't necessarily agree that this poor young man, or anyone else for that matter, is beyond help.  I'd like to think that there is hope for all of us.  But the majority of his comment is quite true in that it's those friends and family left behind who truly suffer after a suicide.  All the people close to the victim who now go through their lives asking what if? and why wasn't I able to help?  I use victim because I believe those who suffer from mental illnesses are victims of their own minds.  I truly feel for people who are so in need of help and are unable to find it.  Whether it be a chemical imbalance or a plethora of other possible causes, these unfortunate souls decide that the only answer is to take their own lives.  That in itself is truly sad, but even though the victim has effectively ended their torment, it is horribly painful for those left behind.  The husbands, wives, parents, children, siblings are left to live with a pain that never goes away.  With time it may subside a little but it's still there.  That's how I can agree with Celtic that it is selfish, the victim basically decides that they can no longer bare their personal pains, but then chooses to inflict a horrible wound to their loved ones knowing that it is no longer their problem.  Thats seems pretty selfish to me, in the least, it's damn inconsiderate.

Daniel... Can understand all that you say, but here's another way I've had to look at this...  Not saying that this applies to this particular poor young man's family, but I've known two people who took their own lives when I was in college many years ago.  Both women had families that were not helpful at all and, in all honesty, added to these women's despair.  From what I knew of the women, there were plenty of times that their cries for help were not heard or dismissed by their families.  These women were not "bad girls"... they were very depressed for a variety of reasons.  My impression was that their families had basically abandoned them, when they needed them the most.  What was hard to swallow was the families of both young women after they ended their lives...  Yes, they were in a lot of pain.  I can't help but feel that it wasn't so much that they missed their daughters and sisters, but that they were racked with guilt over their lack of attention, love and the "shame" they felt in their circles over all of this.  I don't think the women in either case chose to inflict a horrible wound on their families... In fact, I think concern for their families delayed both of their eventual acts of suicide.  These women came from very dysfunctional, wealthy families, that seemed more concerned about image, success and who their daughters should date and marry...  I was devastated after both killed themselves (a year apart from one another).  I knew they were in a lot of pain, and I was very naive back then and did not see the signals for what they were.   I did not feel guilt, as I knew I was friend to both of them, and realized that there was nothing more I really could have done for them at that time, given what I knew.  I missed their wonderful friendships, though.  I can't seem to think of their acts as selfish or inconsiderate - their suicides were not about me, but them.  Even when I think of how their families treated them.  I don't believe either committed suicide to punish their families in any way.  They were both deeply troubled and I don't believe either felt there was any way out of their pain than to let go of their lives.   I think the selfishness and inconsideration came from their families in failing to help these young women, and in their reactions of "how could she do this to ME or US?" ... Again, the act wasn't about them, it was about these young women's pain and deep depression.  Maybe that's the lesson or pain that they will carry for the rest of their lives.  I don't think the victims, the women, should be the ones labeled as selfish or inconsiderate.  Every case is different, of course.

Leo,

 Six years later I still look at my friends picture on my wall and ask "what we're you thinking?" and how did I miss it?

I had a friend do the same thing, knowing full well that I would be the one to find him.  I was coming over to help him plant his garden that morning. He was even "kind" enough to leave a farewell note with the name of a song that will remind me of him every time I hear it on the radio for the rest of my life whether I want to or not.  If it helps you in any way. I had the same feelings then that you are having. It is now 25 years later. Somewhere along the way, I put his picture away for awhile. not to forget him, but so that on days that I wasn't thinking of him that I wouldn't be jarred into doing so. Eventually I did bring his picture back out. You will finally realize that after all of the tossing things around in your mind that you're never going to know what he was thinking and accept it....That there was nothing that was there to miss because he hid it. The anger does subside when you stop beating yourself up over it. The good memories and special times of the friendship will replace them. The sadness will always be there when you think of him, but mainly because you'll know what he has missed and wish you could have shared it with him.  I'm very sorry you lost your friend. God bless you and his family.

Daniel,

I understand what you’re saying. But, you and Celtics are forgetting that people who are depressed don’t have a normal thought process. You use the word "decide" as tho it is a normal thought decision! That in itself is why the statement is ignorant.

But the majority of his comment is quite true in that it's those friends and family left behind who truly suffer after a suicide. All the people close to the victim who now go through their lives asking what if? and why wasn't I able to help? I use victim because I believe those who suffer from mental illnesses are victims of their own minds. I truly feel for people who are so in need of help and are unable to find it. Whether it be a chemical imbalance or a plethora of other possible causes, these unfortunate souls decide that the only answer is to take their own lives. That in itself is truly sad, but even though the victim has effectively ended their torment, it is horribly painful for those left behind.

No doubt, family and friends suffer and are in pain when something like this happens, but let me put this in perspective for you. All the sorrow, pain, hurt, sadness, anger and guilt that family and friends feel are so minute compared to the sorrow, pain, hurt, sadness, anger and guilt a person suffering from depression feels. You and Celtics really don’t understand the depths of depression. You really don’t understand that the littlest tasks become major challenges. Let me give you just one to think about for a while. Lets see if you can comprehend this. (Opening a can of cat food) seems simple, right? Not for me, it was just one of many challenges I had to deal with every day.

The husbands, wives, parents, children, siblings are left to live with a pain that never goes away. With time it may subside a little but it's still there. That's how I can agree with Celtic that it is selfish, the victim basically decides that they can no longer bare their personal pains, but then chooses to inflict a horrible wound to their loved ones knowing that it is no longer their problem. Thats seems pretty selfish to me, in the least, it's damn inconsiderate.

 A depressed person lives with a pain that never goes away. With time it will only get worse. Walk a mile in their shoes.

Daniel, I don’t condone suicide at all. I think it’s sad and my heart hurts for those people who get to that point. All I’m saying is I can understand how someone gets to that point. I was at that point once and it has nothing to do with "deciding" to do it. It’s been 3 years since I was at that point, and I can’t imagine feeling that way again, tho I still remember what it felt like.

You state that "its (sic) about freewill and/or personal accountability." What you fail to realize or mention is that the young man was suffering from mental illness. Bi-polar disorder and most other mental illness has an organic basis. Simply put, his brain worked differently than ours does. The chemicals that influence mood, thought and behavior were not normal.

All the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps/ choose life-affirming paths" in the world wouldn't have helped this unfortunate young man. I would challenge anyone to attempt to carry out daily activities with the difficulties faced by the mentally ill; I'd wager the vast majority of us would fall short.

You are correct in one aspect, however. This is not an internet issue. This is an issue of logic and compassion; these appear to be areas in which you are sorely lacking.

Brains influenced by structural differences, epilepsy, poisons or drugs, extreme pain or torture, etc, often lose the ability of free choice.  People can also be lied to, tricked, etc.  Lucky you is you have not had the chance to learn this through horrible experiences.  You could still educate yourself by reading scientifically conducted medical studies before continuing to insist on this out-dated viewpoint.

As Emerson said, "When the facts change, sir, I change my mind.  What, sir, do you do, sir?"

SVD-thank you for clearly stating what I was making an attempt to utter...

All the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps/ choose life-affirming paths" in the world wouldn't have helped this unfortunate young man. I would challenge anyone to attempt to carry out daily activities with the difficulties faced by the mentally ill; I'd wager the vast majority of us would fall short.

I would have to agree with you! People who have never experienced it themselves cannot begin to imagine what it is like!

Thanks, Kim! I work with special needs children every day and I see the almost-constant struggle for that short time we're together. I get a bit riled when I see people advocating that the mentally ill have some character defect or lack of will to "make themselves better."

I try not to let my anger get the better of me. I don't always succeed. :^)