GM to return two leased jets amid criticism

Security?????  For a CEO??????  What other cr*p will they try to throw??!!!

Joe Biden takes the commuter train almost every day and he just happens to be a United States Senator!!!

Carol, news flash. Joe Biden is now Vice President of the United States of America!  LOL!!!  I'm sure his commuter train days are over ;) 

Cheney is Vice-President. Biden is still the Senator from New Jersey and will remain so until he resigns. (He wants to pass the seat to his son...)

DrKnow, I was only joking. 

However, I do believe Senator Biden is the Senator for Delaware, not NJ  ;)

Sandra-293107

DrKnow, I was only joking. 

However, I do believe Senator Biden is the Senator for Delaware, not NJ  ;)

#24.4 - Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:09 PM HST

Senator Joseph Robinette Biden is the Senator from Delaware, and his constituents (legal clients) are (recognize them?):
Delaware: Freddie Mac, Fanny Mae, Bank of America, Wilmington Trust, First USA / Bank One / JPMorgan Chase, AIG, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Barclays plc, GM, Chrysler, Wachovia, ExxonMobil, Chevron, ISDA, and those States with Corporations Incorporated at Delaware. 

Source Encyclopeae: 1990s to 2007s.

Especially, ISDA. The People that brought you:  the 60 to 100 Trillion USD (it is not 700 Billion USD US Economic Crisis) Global Economic Crisis.  These people will be back for more just like GM, Ford, Chysler, September 2008, 25 Billion, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, to milk the cash cow.  updated add: AIG, Billions USD.  The 60 to 100 Trillion USD does not include the usary interest protected by the Delaware Court of Chancery.
Source International Swaps and Derrivatives Association Incorporated (Delaware). isda.org.
 
Over 50% of US publicly-traded corporations and 60% of the Fortune 500 companies are incorporated in Delaware;[1] the state's attractiveness as a corporate haven is largely due to its business-friendly corporation law. Franchise taxes on Delaware corporations supply about one-fifth of its state revenue.[2]
1. Delaware Corporate Notebook
2. Delaware General Fund 2007 by Category.

Also about catching commuter trains.  Did you ever hear about the NCL, National City Lines?  The people that bought out the working rail mass transit in 48 major cities then tore them down and replaced them with buses.

NCL now NTL = GM (buses), Firestone (tires for GM Buses), Standard Oil of California (Fuel for GM Buses), Philips Petroleum (Engine Oil, Grease, Fuel).

How can they ride something that they were responsible for destroying?

you'd think they would have planned it much sooner.  They've only been loosing billions for months.

Corporate jets are necessary no matter what anyone says.  The last thing a company needs is to have expensive personel sitting in airports being non productive. 

I certainly don't want my exes sitting around when I pay them as well as I do or perhaps getting caught on a runway for hours at a time.

Clay,

The BIG difference is that your company is not begging for a ton of money from the US taxpayers!

Clay, with all due respect, you've already supplied your executives with a laptop.  If their commercial flight is delayed, chances are the charter one would be too.  That's when you pay for the grand or so a year for them to go to the Airline Hospitality Room where they can continue working on their "laptop."  I don't see the productivity issue here.  Sounds like either your Execs or some Jet Charter company has sold you a bill of goods.

Look at post 19.2.  I provided you with some "real" numbers.  How much could your company be saving?

That is for darn sure I am asking for nothing.  Originally I  was not convinced when my controller told me we needed a corporat jet.  But now we have 2 and we save a lot of money as opposed to using commercial.  So the jet issue does not bother me and if people knew what the bottom line was they would not be so upset. 

I understand why they are upset.  The man on the street sees the jet as nothing but an expense but once the numbers go to the paper, it is not a luxury

Also to Clay -- no excuses as laptops, cell phones, telephone conference calling and many other electronic methods of communication are available these days.  It is not mandatory to be sitting at the same walnut conference table in order to accomplish business, nor is it sensitive to the "non" executive staff who must accomodate their own schedules to further the ease of the execs.  Please see my comment below.  If all of you people would stop thinking like you're so very special and learn or re-learn how to live like the "common" people (and I don't mean "welfare" "illegal aliens" "lower class" or any other demeaning term, but rather working class or as Obama says "middle" class), you would learn how to be more efficient.  This waste more, want more mentality is now out of tune to the rest of the country.

Clay, you make a convincing point (especially backing it up with your Controller's recommendation), but I'd still have to see those numbers on the balance sheet  ;)

You stated later that you "own" your Corporate Jets (you don't Charter).  Again, no financial guru, but I'd want to see the projected amortization of owning these aircraft in addition to maintenance fees, pilot's fees, cleaning fees, hangar fees, etc.

But I think what matters is that Clay made a business decision for his company, and isn't going to Congress begging the taxpayers to bail him out. I have no problem with that, regardless of what it costs his company. There's a big difference in my mind about that issue.

Jim, yes, great point!  Another point that was made is that there were 17 GM employees who traveled to Washington, so the company jet would make sense.

Interesting that there was such a large number from one company going to Washington.  I ask, "Why were they all invited?" 

and where were they during the hearings? 

Donn, good question!  Where the heck were all of these 17 GM employees that went to Washington for this meeting?  Sure wasn't on the Preparedness Task Force to get their CEO's ready for the meeting .... that's for da_n sure!

I don't understand the logic on how execs needprivate jets to travel.  Aren't these the same execs that pay their subordinates to wait in line for commercial planes when they go on their business meetings. 

Hundreds of business men fly commercial everyday all around the world, and these 3 want me to believe that they can't manage business the same way?  Heaven help 'em if they have to travel like commoners!

Jeremy, I believe these Big3 could do a complete turnaround, and be profitable.  However, it would take enormous changes, and those would have to start at the top.  Unless, Congress holds their feet to the fire with demands for meaningful change, then these companies have no hope.

However, I really do believe if the right changes were implemented, all Big 3 could be salvaged.  I, for one, would love nothing more than to see American made cars beat the pants off Japan, Germany and Korea!  We already do have the foundation.

It just takes a new direction (new leadership), a whole lot of commitment, and vision.

I would like american made cars to beat the pants off foreign makers, but I don't see that happening without BIG changes.  I don't see the big three doing a whole lot of changes.  I am sick of the idea of giving these CEOs the money to keep business going.  They aren't going to make the kind of changes the public wants, they'll make a few adjustments to look good, but that's all. 

Our great leaders are going to give them the money. We better start preparing ourselves, it's what our democratic leaders want.  They only put off the vote because they knew if they gave the money now the public would be pissed off, but they will clean it up to make it look better and in December they will give them the money and nothing will change.  Well maybe the CEOs will have to scale down..  ha ha ha... Don't believe it.

Tired, absolutely, it was nothing more than a Dog & Pony Show, and Congress showed its behind just as much as the CEO's did (nothing has changed).  That was nothing more than when Congress pointed out excessive spending (the use of Corporate jets) .... that's like "the pot calling the kettle black."

And, Obama's message is that Washington must earn America's trust again?  I say, good luck with that!  I don't trust one of 'em as far as I could throw 'em!  They're all a bunch of crooks!

Sandra........I agree.  I didn't vote this year and that was my right.  I was so confused and sick of the dirty political smearing that I said the hell with it.  It doesn't matter.  Now that Obama will be our president, I pray to God to give him the strength to stand up for the American people.  A person who goes into politics may have idealistic visions but he/she are soon taken in with the "go with the flow" mentality and become as corrupt as their predecessors or else they run into a brick wall.  There will be a revolution in this country !!!  I don't know when but it's shaping up.

Not sure where your expenses came from in your aviation dept, but in my dept, the 2 jets we have are both very cost efficent and we own them.  A years lease was 15 times your salary?  where you working for free or are we talking apples and oranges

759,000.00 for one year, Yes I only made 60 tho, wish I still was. So do my children.

Clay, now I understand.  You "own" your jets; not Charter.  Big difference.  These jets that the CEOs from the Big 3 are Charter Corporate Jets.  I'm no CEO like you, but I believe this is a "tax write-off" travel business expense for the companies at the end of the year.  However, still more expensive to write that off as Corporate Charter, as opposed to First Class commercial.

See 26.7 above.

Since you have been in avaition and are currently out of work, drop me an e-mail to and lets discuss employment ops. 

Ahhh, don't see that very often on the Vine.  Nice!  ;)

Thank you

Heaveto, ROFLMAO!  Good one!

Now that is funny!  But sad also!

Heaveho--you must live in NY state....we've gots lots of that around here....

Escalades in the parking lot of the public services building always warms my heart when I think of where my taxes are going. ;-0

Obviously you have not spent much time in the corporate world.  Most major corporations around the world require their top people to fly corporate jets.   there is nothing new about that at all. 

Most of the info you want is available through corp SEC filings and consolidated tax statements which are public record.

saying yu are going to build a new car that is efficent is wonderful, but it is going to take 2-3 years to get it on the road

Clay No, I’m not from a corporate world and if I were I would not be flaunting the usage of private plans when asking for a bailout.

You said “Most major corporations around the world require their top people to fly corporate jets.” Why????

When times are hard especially for companies right now why not show the world your bigger then that and do inside cutbacks like using common sense and take a commercial flight not a rented jet and save the company money.

You said “Most of the info you want is available through corp SEC filings and consolidated tax statements which are public record.”  True but any company that is wanting a bailout they should present everything in the open, up front portfolio without anyone having to search for that information and how they plan to save their company money.

saying yu are going to build a new car that is efficent is wonderful, but it is going to take 2-3 years to get it on the road.  Doesn’t matter what does matter is they start on it when and if they receive the bailout money and not use the money for anything other then that.

You are correct!  There is no incentive, they've got theirs and no one is going to take it away so why should they really care.  They are the piviledged ones and in their minds they deserve all the perks. 

I would like to comment on this.  Bill Gates and his wife have given much back to the community.  So has Tiger Woods and I'm sure there are others.  Being able to help those less fortunate has got to be the greatest feeling in the world.........