U.S. automakers to submit plans to Congress

Absolutely right!  The auto industry has been carrying the oil industry.  A big reason is because Americans wanted the gas guzzlers that they were building.  Why on earth would you produce a civilian version of the Hummer, if there wasn't a market for it?  Why would you build an SUV the size of the Excursion, if there wasn't a market?

A large part of the American public wanted these vehicles.  Walmart would sell an item if there wasn't a market for it... Dell wouldn't sell a computer if there wasn't a market for it. The auto industry is no different.

Congress (Pelosi and Reid), knows they have the US auto industry on the ropes, and they are making a scapegoat out of them.  If Congress doesn't approve the "bailout"/loan to them, they will go under.  They have to give Congress a daily plan of all of their secrets, their next ventures and what their next moves will be. And these congressional leaders, these pillars of the US economy, these people who have governed the economy so well these last few years, will be able to understand what the automakers are saying? 

By paring down the US industry to the levels Pelosi and Reid want, by the time the economy turns around, there won't be enough of the US auto industry left to regain any market share.  

Actually Pelosi, who's from California, who has always insisted on tighter controls than any other state,  who has fought the auto industry for her entire career, and Reid, who wouldn't make a decision Pelosi doesn't approve of, are listening to only one person... Senator Shelby from Alabama.  Why does he want the US industry to fall?  Because the three foreign auto makers in his state are paying him to get the US car makers out of the way so they get a larger share of the pie. 

US car makers and their employees... You had better start re-educating yourselves.  You will not win against this stacked deck.  This Congress' leaders are enemies of the US market, and they have the power to make whatever decision they want.  There is no win-win answer to this.  If they don't get what they want, they're going to slit your throats! And, if they get what they want (whatever that may be, on any given day), you won't have enough left to make a dime when the economy does recover!

Hope I'm wrong, but that's my opinion.

Give the $25 Billion to electric California Car Companies like Tesla. They actually have a product that works. http://www.teslamotors.com/ 

I totally agree Pelosi has her own little agenda as does Senator Reid, it's amazing that Pelosi didn't see a problem with throwing her own little pork project on the Bank Bailout that benefitted Star Kist Tuna from her home state of Califonia.  I firmly believe that there should be yearly mental evaluations of all Congressional members because some of these people are just nuts - it's good for A but bad for B even when B employees millions and millions of Americans either directly or indirectly.  Where was all this spanish inquisition when AGI and the rest of the financial institutions failed due to fraud and bad business practices.

Exactly right! All the financials had to do was fill out a two and a half page application. No stipulations as to how the money would be spent, no accountability at all! It's okay to funnel billions down the financials' black hole, but not okay to give a bridge loan on the auto industry? (...with stipulations, of course. We've done enough of no oversight deals with the free handouts to the financials.)

They get nothing.. They go bankrupt.. end of story.. No more handouts and no more bailouts.. They dug this hole they can use it to get buried..

emick23

What an excellent idea. It just goes to show that there is no honor among thieves since the oil companies aren't helping out their auto buddies.

Mike and Joni

Pelosi and Reid sure seem to be powerful people behind the scenes if other posts like yours are any indication. How sinister. Did you folks have two repubs when they ran congress with the same influence and power you attribute to Pelosi and Reid? Can you provide any details about their power and how they use it?

I'm not a fan of either one but I often wonder how it is that certain people in congress can have their hands in all sorts of stuff. Do you have alternates? If both were removed from congress tomorow who would fill their shoes?

Completely agree. Business is business. Manufacturing efficiency and smart applications of money would have greatly alleviated the situation they have created for themselves.

Yearly mental evals...I LOVE IT!  Of course they would have to be by Dr's with no hidden agenda of their own.  Maybe randomly pick 3-5 Drs each year..like they choose jurors. 

As for this Ford prick and his $1 salary...gee shouldn't he STILL be living off of last years salary???????

Today is Dec 2., will this salary be from now until Dec 31?  A whole 29 days??  AIG screwed the lawyer laden Congress over as well as all of us!!  Lets see if the morons on Capital Hill "convienently" forget to ask how long this $1 salary will last!

Meanwhile my soon to be 16 year olds 529 plan will have him applying for loans and scolarships!

I would just like to say why doesn't all CEO's that make millions and have been for years do the same as this CEO.

I hope it is not just for 29 days...what's the point?

They should all get a conscious and unite. Take home pay for all CEO's for 2009 $1.00. Remember they all still have their golden parachutes.

Honestly, you can't take it with you and your fellow country men are in a bind. How about giving as much if not more than you have taken. Maybe instead of buying that 15th home, how about keeping Americans employed?

They have all made so much money, people are struggling and all they need to do is help those that need it.

I hope this is not a joke and they are really thinking about being proactive.

No, they should not have their hand out for a bail-out if they can fly in on a private jet...give me a break!

Oh so let me get this straight - the CEO from Ford is only going to take a $1 salary - but the where does it say that he will not take a bonus?  Where does it say that there is no expense account?   Where does it say that there will be no stock options? Sure the stock may be worthless now, but it could go back up. Oh sure give him stock right now for what um, $5.00 a share and then it goes up to say maybe $100.00 a share one day and oh by the way he gets say a million shares.  What he has been given in the past would be enough for alot of us to live on for a lifetime, but oh now he will take just a $1.00.  PLEASE!!!!!!

There should be no bailouts--period.  Giving money to bad managers will always end badly.

Money should be invested in renewable resources that are not destructive to the environment or our health.

The automakers would have us believe that it's all a result of the economic downturn. IF that didn't happen, we'd be fine. The reality is that Toyota surpassed GM as the largest car company in the world and that didn't happen overnight. Congress has this give everybody the money and bail everything out mode and let the America 2 or 3 decades from now deal with it. It was pre-destined congress would give them the money and the opinion of the American public means nothing. It's nothing but a show of a "yeah, we're concerned" to please the taxpayers.   

I think Bill Clinton should step up to the plate and bail them out.  He makes $425,000 per speech.  How about Warren Buffett?  No wait, Bill Gates or maybe George Soros..... If we expect the citizens of this country to take responsibility for their actions (yes I still do expect as much) then the corporations should follow suit.  Bankruptcy reorganization is the best route for these companies. 

Don't pin this on the oil companies.  Every industry has suppliers that benefit from each other's success.  This is how business works and grows, each company working together to the mutual benefit of customers, employees, etc.  The only people to blame for the Big-3 problems are the Board of Directors (& CEO's) and the United Auto Workers Union (UAW).  All employees, regardless of position, should be paid a wage that fits the position and keeps the company competitive.  If not don't expect to have a job for long.  In my business, for example, I could not afford to pay people when they no longer work for the company and I can not afford to pay them 25% more than my competitors.  If I did I might be looking for a bail out as well.   The UAW needs to go away if the Big-3 expect to have a viable future.  If the UAW continues its normal operation expect to discuss this same issue in 5-7 years.

Well, all I have to say is that the Ford CEO is the first one I can actually respect for saying something like that--he's already banked millions--to work for one dollar for a year won't make a dent in his bank account. 

So, where are the rest of the bailout CEO's?  Are they willing to get $1 for the next year?  I guess their silence speaks volumes.

He'll take the $1.00 a year salary in 2009 and then in 2010 his salary is going to go right back up to the same that he was making or probably double to compensate for the past year, also once they get that money if the use it wisely their companies are going to be okay again and once because he did "such a great job" he'll get bonuses and blah blah blah...

Business 101, increased production equals decreased costs.  In other words, the more that are produced the lower the costs of that item.

So, they wouldn't cost $100,000.  In addition, Tesla Motors is working on a lower cost sedan to compliment the roadster.

When are we as a society going to admit that Unions have ran there course in America. I've yet to see Toyota or BMW (non union factories) need help or complain about the economy. Unions were good 20 years ago. Now they add extra cost to companies and protect poor workers. I've yet to hear any Union say the are willing to re-work their pay or contracts. I'm blown away that this is not brought up. By the way, why do so many people want Wal-Mart to go union? To raise prices.... that's sad.

I am a proud owner of a Ford Explorer.

I might buy another Ford, but not if there is any kind of bailout. 

That's just me, one person, but one person can make a difference.

Thank you, Mike, for the post.  What's with all these folks mad at the auto companies without any concern that the pittance they are requesting would employ thousands of American blue collar workers, while the only "workers" benefiting from the hundreds of billions thrown at Wall St. are the same financial geniuses who made this mess?  If the U.S. government hadn't totally screwed with the Big 3 by assiduously courting their unions, maybe they wouldn't be in such trouble and maybe all those domestically based, foreign manufacturers wouldn't be locating their plants in non-union areas.  Now, when Ford asks for money to meet its contract obligations to the UAW, the same D's who worked so hard against American manufacturing interests want to act like the automakers are lepers.  Not a dime for Wall St., but I can spare some change for Ford (whose product I like a whole lot better than my other car, a BMW).

You can not bailout the auto industry.  Their problems stem from an outdated system, UAW.  The UAW is the majority of the their financial problems.  The union wants more money and benefits with less work and more time off.  I feel sorry for the union people but the UAW needs to fall inline with the other auto makers in the south.  It is unrealistic to get $88 per hour for menial labor, the real world does not work that way.  Bankruptcy and restructuring is the only hope for the Big-3.

Good point, DEAN - kinda hard to ask the single mom, waitress, earning minimum wage with no benefits, to cough up cash so that the UAW can continue to offer gold-plated retirement benefits to their members...  However, THAT is the choice being offered to Congress:  NOT whether to save the auto companies, who can escape this mess by going bankrupt and restructuring their debts to the Unions, but rather whether or not Congress wants to save the Unions (whose votes they've grubbed for decades).  Don't take it out on Ford, take it out on the UAW.  When Walter Reuther's successor agrees to a dollar a day, THEN we'll have some progress... 

Great idea!  Let's just take money from all the industries that make any sort of profit and "bail-out" the failing auto industry and any other industry that is failing!  That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard.  Do you realize that oil companies don't just supply gasoline for your car?  They supply jet fuel (which there is no alternative for) and plastics (which there is no alternative for).  Without the big, bad oil company no one would be flying or have anything that is made out of plastic.  I am sick and tired of everyone looking at the oil industry like it is bad.  Since when is it bad for a company to make profit?  Hello!  It's called CAPITALISM!  Look it up...  Millions of Americans are employed by the oil industry, me included, and I for one do not want my well-managed company to have to "bail-out" the auto industry for their mis-management. 

Without consumer financing available to the masses....cars will continue to sit on the lot. The majority of consumers in this country do not have stellar credit due to loss of homes, loss of jobs, loss of heath, along with the damage done by corporate/government predators. The government should invest in the people and stop pouring our treasury into insatiable predators who only care about their own multi-million dollar golden parachutes. This is what happens when you bankrupt the people, when our government allows us to become so imbalanced that the top end smothers the majority of us who are barely making a living wage. Help us.....After a year of neglect....finally..... some workable resolution is being applied to home foreclosures...but that is just the first step.....the people need the income to support the top who is obviously not willing to give up the billions they have stolen from us.

It is a better deal than bailing out Wall Street and banks, who have been scaming America for years.

Big oil ain't gonna pay s---! The majority of them are foreign businesses. Why would they want to help out the states. GM should spite them with a return of the EV1 and you can't tell me ford doesn't have something in the garage either. The areas GM should ditch are Cadillac and Hummer. People buy them only to find they can't afford the payments and thats why many americans credit ratings suck. The enviromentalists would love it to. Ford could lose Jaguar and Lincoln. The branches I've listed can only be afforded by the upper 1%. The worst thing Ford did was dropped whatever it held in Mazda. We need affordable fuel-efficent vehicles since big oil isn't gonna help. Have you seen what a hybrid goes for? Bring that price down. Its sitting where anyone who can afford some of the american hybrids, isn't really worried bout filling the tank. Many of them are expensive.

After reading the hundreds of posts on this blog....it is pretty obvious why the auto makers are not selling their inventory...hopefully .....someone in the position to move us in the right direction will read each and every one. The resolution is here....

That's a nice gesture to drive a Malibu sedan all the way to Washington. I hope it don't break down anywhere...on second thought maybe they should stick to the corporate jets.

Mike-501780  Actually Pelosi, who's from California, who has always insisted on tighter controls than any other state,  who has fought the auto industry for her entire career, and Reid, who wouldn't make a decision Pelosi doesn't approve of, are listening to only one person... Senator Shelby from Alabama.  Why does he want the US industry to fall?  Because the three foreign auto makers in his state are paying him to get the US car makers out of the way so they get a larger share of the pie.

Hope I'm wrong, but that's my opinion  6 votes  #1.1 - Tue Dec 2, 2008 9:38 AM EST

Yes, that is an opinion and opinions are like rectal orifices, everyone's got one, except some are smellier than others.  Congress is demanding what was promised to them with the previous Bailouts 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, retooling for more fuel efficent cars, less emissions, "greener" cars, hybrids, etc..  All they and we have received is excuses from the Obese 3.  Who only use the previous Bailout money to retool by moving to Mexico and Canada and close "US Factories".  Example the last Bailout 2002, New Factory at Toluca, Mexico, closure of US Factories at Detroit and PA.

Just because the Japanese and Korean auto makers are doing what the Obese 3 cannot do, reinvest in the United States of America, as Business 101, do not blame them for doing what they were taught in Business school in the US.  And no the profits stay in the US with their separate USA Corporate affiliates.  Unlike the Obese 3 who are sending every dime to Mexico and Canada, while laying off Americans.  Face the fact that since the Bailouts from the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, they have sold out the United States of America Citizens.  Heck GM was even going to sell the Headquarters Building in Detroit last month.

And just because you really do not know, as most in the US do not.  The reason the Japs and Koreans are investing so heavily in the US despite taking huge losses is because the old ones that survived WWII as children are paying the US back for their survival and rebuilding under the MacArthur Plan.  Most would have starved to death as children.  See movie Grave of the Fireflies.  There was a similiar Plan to rebuild South Korean after the Korean War, the movie Tai Guk Gi depicts the devastation of South Korea.

I can understand why the Obese 3 want to move, it is a matter of something that is not known, in the Obese 3 Plants, it is called extensive state of the art automation, not allowed by "labor" in the US.  A couple of dozen workers instead of hundreds.  The people that "slit throats" were your fellow Americans that sold you out to Oshawa, Ontario, Canada and Toluca, Mexico.  Go look for yourself, that is where the "American","Domestic" cars are really made then one or two nuts or bolts (made in China) are put on in a US Plant, claiming "Made in USA"; unlike the Jap and Korean cars that actually are "Made In the USA".  You better pray that the Japs and Koreans do not get tired of your unAmerican NAZI (National Socialist) racist attitude, "Yellow Journalism", etc. and leave, if they do, hope your neighbors that are put out of work visit you, along with all the Americans from Kentucky, Alabama, Tennesse, Missouri, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, California, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, New Mexico, Arizona, Virginia, Georgia, etc. that either are assembling cars or manufacturing parts in the USA employing American Citizens in the USA, not Mexicans or Canadians for the ("Foreign") Real American Auto Industry (Toyota USA, Honda USA, Nissan USA, Hyundai USA).  NOTE the younger Japs and Koreans are like the US Corporate Board Members and have stated they want to close all US investments and move to China, the old "Corporate Samurai" as they are known as, are fighting them on behalf of the debt they feel toward the US for their very lives.

Regarding the article seems the Ford CEO got the idea of what is needed to get the loan.  The other two, weither "symbolic" or not do not understand, we don't like paying high salaries for failures, and we do not like the smoke screen of secrecy that Chrysler is putting up (this is one of the reasons that Damiler Benz dumped them, the other reason was their corruption and unwillingness to change).  They still have not addressed what we the Citizens want to hear, what are they going to produce to sell to us.

oldefarte - that is what you are smelly and do not understand that the Obese 3, by definition are Domestic Terrorist, saying that unless you give us money you will lose 3 million jobs (what they do not tell you, including Mexicans and Canadians).  The days of our having pity for a PRIVATE CORPORATION's failure, while not wanting to do what is "necessary" and calling things "symbolic" like taking their own paycuts, GET REAL.  This is not your daddy's Big 3 this is the Obese 3 from Mexico and Canada, ever since they lobbied for 1994 NAFTA and CAFTA to close all the US Factories for cheap labor.  And a Mexican,Canadian, Chinaman, in their own country waving an American Flag IS NOT an AMERICAN, like you keep thinking the Obese 3 are.  So guess who the REAL Americans are it's the Japs and Koreans.

  Well lets see what the trolls ahve to say

1. Its all the unions fault.

2. No bailouts for the Auto industry

3 CEO's are idiots

4. My foreign car is better than your American made car.

5 Not my fault it is the unions

6 It all Democrats fault

7 It is Pelosi and Ried's fault

8 Must be Obama's fault

9 Its the Unions fault

10 It godless democrats fault

Yawnnnnnn

The first question should be why is there any talk of a bailout in the first place.  I can pull the articles in the mid 80's that stated that the union contracts being won would doom the U.S. Big three.  Everyone acts like this is some great surprise.  Nobody is bailing out the lady who saved all her life to open a dress shop and is going to loose it.  Nobody is bailing out the American rancher who has watched government policy on ethanol destroy his livelihood!  Let GM and its workers get together and see if they can construct a viable business out of bankruptcy and if not GM's death will likely secure Ford's and Chrysler's survival. 

GM  is asking for $16 billion over four months, with the promise that they will enact some changes within three to four years and that the CEO will work for a dollar.  Come on!  United Airlines and others have gone bankrupt, being to big to fail is part of the problem.  This is terrible management being rewarded.  I can't believe Ford is setting there and saying they might not need it, but give us a line of $9 billion in case, and we accept that.  Either you need it or you don't, of course how can Ford compete if GM gets a $16 billion dollar infusion and they don't? 

As far as the oil companies coming to the rescue, again, what planet are we on.  Do you have a car?  Is anyone talking about not having a car?  The answer is no.  The question is do mismanaged companies who gave up more than they could afford in labor benefits going to be the ones who make them.  I feel like I've been beamed down into the "Atlas Shrugged" world. 

What's next are we going to go back to every store in downtown America and give them a bailout because they went under when Wal-Mart came to town?  I hear Atari made some really good games before the x-box, playstation, and the like came along.  What about those poor 8 track manufacturers?  The boys and girls at GM should do what small business operators and farmers have been doing for decades find another job. 

GOZO, there is plenty of financing available for people with decent credit.

True, if you have bad credit, it's hard to buy a car, but that's the way it should be.

Why put the money into these automakers bank accounts?  Make credit easier to get for people who can't get credit now, so that they can buy cars off the lots.  That's how it's supposed to be.  Every year cars are getting more and more expensive, and fewer people can afford them.  Look at that as well.  Veronica.

Because they are owned by the stockholders and are not in the lending business. That is what we have banks for. Let them claim bankruptcy and reorganize into a smaller leaner company. If they are any good at business, they will emerge stronger than ever and union free.

Take a hike guys. If you would have made cars that consumers wanted, like Toyota did, you wouldn't need cash now. Stick out your chin and take it like men.

Come on now, it costs a lot of money to keep the corporate jets running.

For those of you who think we don't need American owned and operated auto manufactures then think about this. During world war 2 the assembly lines were turned into making war machines for the Americans. Mercedes in Germany turned their assembly lines into making war machines for the Germans. ETC. ETC. If we no longer have GM and other American auto makers do you think the foreign auto makers in the south would turn their lines into making American War machines since they are owned by foreign countries.

Maybe I am an exception or just plain stupid but I rest better knowing that we have less, not more capacity to produce instruments of war. Look where Iraq got us--$3 trillion deeper in debt. This isn't 1939. We have enough weapon capacity to wipe out life dozens of times over. Speaking for myself, we don't need a backup plan for that.

I feel like I just had a drunken epiphany. 

At first I was like- do whatever it takes to get the economy rolling again.  But have we been duped again by big business and media with how they have framed this economic situation as all these little ole' companies needing help? 

How did new car companies like Saturn ever become profitable - Answer: Their business was effective and efficient.  So let GM or any other company's whose business fails die a natural business death of an infeffective company. Let new car companies come in and fill that niche. This would cost taxpayers zero.  Let me repeat zero.  With GM gone there would be a business void for new American car companies to come and fill in and hopefully to a better job.   OMG, I'm turning into a republican.

heck if there only talking till March I say no way. that is not a year plan that just someone trying to get his big bonus before the @!$%# hit the fan. No bail out

They took plants to other country so let them keep them up and running not my tax dollars. The out sourced now we do.

america302560

 no your noy tuning into a republican your a idiot like the rest here if they think after the b3 are gonr this will still be america. i can't belive all you idiots

First of all let me say that I don't like balimg (act. its a bridge loan) out the auto makers any more than others, BUT history says we (the taxpayer gets re-payed WITH INTEREST). It seems that many people don't seem to understand this repayment.

What you people should be worred about is the 70  plus years that we have bailed out the farmers of America (welfare - no repayment). Each and EVERY year 10's of billions of your tax dollars are used as wefare payment for programs like:

PRICE SUPPORT PAYMENTSPROGRAM, CRP, CREP, RIMM, BUYOUTS, BUY DOWNS, DISASTER PAYMENTS, MANDATES (ethanol/ Bio Diesel), IMPORT TAXES, FARM INSURANCE  the list is non ending. Why do you think we have a government farm office in EVERY county in the US - ITs to fill out all the welfare paper work for the farmer with no repayment on your tax dollars. The net of this is -leave the auto industry alone - unless you want to take on the farm lobbies and get some of your tax dollars back.       

Excellent Point.

I totally agree - make them file bankruptcy; just like you or I would have to. Like joe said, they dug their own hole... Of course they will say ANYTHING to save their donkeys - including selling out their own workforce. Slash Exec salaries, suspend bonuses - BS - REPLACE the greedy Executives, CEO's and restructure - but not on my tax payers dollars! Perhaps community service, bake sales and CAR WASHES are appropriate.

The government keeps trying to sell this idea to the American Tax Payers that using $$$ from the general tax fund (our tax dollars) for this bailout - is like investing in these companies and IF they survive and profit - we will too!

What a crock... do you see any other investors gobbling up Auto Company Stocks (the ones performing their dog and pony show to appear humble and deserving)? Make the greedy bastards sell off their own assets, use their own pensions and bank accounts to bali themselves out - or let them go. That is let them go straight to jail pending criminal investigations and prosecution if warranted. Talk about "The Fleecing of America"!

Let them bake cakes, wash cars, sell their Jets, and sell their own assets to bail themselves out!

Let them declare bankruptcy.. I dont care if they go under.. Someone else will pick up the slack..

We are willing to bail out Wall St, S&L's, Airlines, foreign countries, pay to rebuild the oil industry in Iraq, fight Bush's war all at staggering numbers at the drop of a hat.  The industry that has shaped our economy for almost 100 years asks for help and we are upset and feel betrayed.  Ridiculous, History continues to repeat itself and the idiots we breed in this country that help repeat this vicious cycle BLOW MY MIND!

When 9/11 happened our economy became very unstable, but if you look back it was GM with their 0% financing that helped create a buying frenzy which helped feed the economy.  Until they announced this financing to the public Dealerships across the country were graveyards and if you look at that 3rd quarter in Antone's books you will find a lot of them are the same.

I find it hilarious that we didn't think that giving away all their profit on financing would have an affect on the bottom line sooner or later.  The ripple affect will be enormous if the auto industry is left out to dry.  I would also consider that a direct attack on the American quilt.  

I also agree that the UAW does need to be restructured and given less control over the auto industries ability to function and be profitable.  That alone could save us as americans at the dealerships thousands of dollars each day. 

Not bailing them out and allowing them to fall is not an option.  Considering what we have already started is a long line of hand outs that our children's children will be paying for long after we are dead.  Mark my words this 700 billion dollar bail out has just opened the door to a windfall of bailouts and American payouts.

Northern

Instead of bailing out wall street the govt should be bailing out main street.that 700 billion sure would do me and a lot of lower wage earners alot of good as a stimulus check forr all people and families who make 70,000 or less.

I am of the opinion that the major point is being missed here. We are really talking about our country surviving against other country's that are hoping we fail. Where will this country be if manufacturing and other industries leave for other country's? Or our industries are allowed to fail because we see no further than our noses? We depend on others for too much as it is now....when do we start watching out for ourselves? We need manufacturing and industry here . Our government has no problem letting them fail...they are more than willing to let them move out amd send items back to us....they have already shown this. Its is time for the people here to look out for themselves and their jobs and not just close them down. Mistakes have been made to be sure.....righting the mistakes may not be easy but has to be done. Our government has made hudge mistakes , they however place that blame on others. It is in my opinion thie for them, our government, to stop playing their games and get down to business

Oh Mari-357475 you little war monger, you.  LOL.
The US Military stopped trusting the Obese 3 when they pushed for the passage of the 1994 NAFTA and CAFTA and everything was being outsourced to Mexico and Canada.
By Law the US Military cannot buy anything that is not "Made In the USA".  The only exception is a rarely granted special US Congressional Waiver.
To solve this problem the US Military opened/reopened Government Owned Government Operated Plants and Factories or Government Owned Contractor Operated Factories.  Similiar to World War II.
Basically, the Obese 3, Legislated themselves out of doing any business with the US Military.

Mari-357475

For those of you who think we don't need American owned and operated auto manufactures then think about this. During world war 2 the assembly lines were turned into making war machines for the Americans. Mercedes in Germany turned their assembly lines into making war machines for the Germans. ETC. ETC. If we no longer have GM and other American auto makers do you think the foreign auto makers in the south would turn their lines into making American War machines since they are owned by foreign countries.

#1.40 - Tue Dec 2, 2008 2:10 PM HST

The Germans Nationalized their industry under the National Socialist Party (NAZI). Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei.  And all businesses in Germany or occupied countries had to comply to the National Socialist Party or were no longer in business. 

Mari-357475  If you want an unbiased view of where we were and where we are going.

Develop a time line of events, national and international, from about 1900 to 2007.

Then, if you can join the Government and get a Masters or Doctorate in Systems Management (manage anything from a peanut farm to the terraforming of non terrestial bodies (planets), interrelations of systems).  As long as the Government allows you to.  Since they "Officially" cancelled this program since the Systems Managers were digging up all their skeletons, smoking guns, corpses to see the "entire" picture of the puzzles (systems) to accurately develop plans and contingency plans for the long term future.  The Systems Managers became the Government's "Crystal Ball" with a large degree of accuracy, using the "Systems Management Approach" (symbolic logic, mathematics, Social Engineering, etc.).  Scary huh.

I don't even like the plan, I think is silly, I don’t see any improvement in their plans... the way I see it, congress needed them to come up with something, any lie would have been okay so that people would be like okay at least this time they promised something so okay, we’ll give them the money, just in case something went bad congress would be able to cover their butts and be like, hey! we asked them though questions, we required them to have a plan… Don't you think is stupid and silly for them to be promoting the fact that they drove to congress? They have said it over and over again; I don’t care how they get there as long as they can show me something good that will make me feel safe about lending them the money…

I find it so curious that now Ford says they won't need a bailout, and with their proposed cost-cutting plans, no bonuses for any management, no pay increases, etc., they should be ok through 2009. Duh... did they ever consider these options before they went running to capitol hill with their hands out, whining, carrying on?? No, they didn't. Why? Because they were confident they would get what they wanted, no questions asked, lest the big 3 go under. They got a moment of prayer from Congress and ALL of us who have screamed, and emailed, and made ourselves heard that we will not be happy with this. I saw the UAW president on TV last week, talking about how they make far less than the $70 per hour, which we knew, but they make a good living. How about early retirement for some eligibile workers, trimming the staff overall?

Lee Iacocca took a $1 per YEAR until they fully paid off the loan (not bailout) that Chrylser got years ago. I dont know what his bonuses were, I dont remember they were off the charts. These guys are now just doing what Lee did. They thought they'd fly in on the private jets, fly home with cash. Too bad, so sad, they didn't. You want my money Ford, GM and Chyrlser? Downsize, cut salaries and give me a plan of action.

I thought that was interesting too.  Once they ACTUALLY streamlined expenses, they had enough money to pay their bills.  (Rather like every middle-class American has been forced to do in these difficult times....give up luxuries and treats just to pay for the basics.) 

I also found it interesting, however, that they still had the audacity to tell Congress that although they didn't NEED the money, they still want it and will take it.  Most of the middle class actually NEEDS the money.  Can we get it? 

No bailout no way no how.  If Teslamotors makes a good product at an affordable price they will be the next billionaire company. Ford doesn't have to take the abuse of morons do not take the money trim the fat renegotiate contract cut overhead including management and get profitable. There was a guy that saved Chrysler some years ago named Lee Iaccoca. No government money period just a well run business with a quality product. It takes give and take not accepting government handouts and the drivel that come with them. I am certain that oil companies are not stupid and are investing in new oil free products. Do you folks really think that these guys will just sit back and lose the source of their income. Come on.

Actually, Barney.. Chrysler/Lee Iaccoca did get money from the government, many, many millions.  BUT the difference is that he got it as a loan, and paid some interest on it too, as he would with any loan.  He paid back every dime.  Where is Chrylser now?? Back in the red, hollering for money.  Did Iacocca not teach them anything?

mainebound

we don't need iacocka any more we have people there that know unions are the good thing for peolpe like you so you keep your $10.00 and hour job. go blow

I make more than $10 an hour, nonunion, and come from a long line of union workers. USWA... You are not in a position to tell me or anyone on here about unions since you dont know us personally. If YOU make $10 an hour, that's your life, not mine... the unions were just exactly what was needed for auto workers and the steel industry at one time.  Now, no...  

$10.00 "and" hour job? Apparentlly if your union, education don't come into play. No wonder the big 3 can't sell s---! Unions are why the jobs have gone to mexico. There is the idea of getting a decent wage and being greedy.

The CEO gets the job by being married to another one of the big-wigs sister's. Its not talent, its who you know or blow. Quote Dilbert "Decisions are made by people who have time, not people who have talent. The people who have talent are fixing the decisions created by people who have time.

I did not write this but it expresses my thoughts on this issue better than I ever could!

Good evening,

I hope that you do not mind but I thought that this was worth sharing.

Incredible editorial from one of our Dealers in the Pittsburgh Region….

Attached is a well written "Letter to the Editor" from Elkins Fordland.
Editor:
As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.

When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.

Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.

When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.

Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.

It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.

After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!

We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.

Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.

The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?

As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.

So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.

So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

Jim Jackson
Elkins

try being original. it gets taken more seriously.

4everamerica   You've got a good point.  I pray every night for God to forgive this nation.  There are still some who are fiscally correct.  I ask God, to forgive those who have put us in this mess.  And please, don't count us in with those who have sinned against HIM.  I know my family didn't have anything to do with this.  I believe most of this falls to the young, the greedy, & the poor uneducated masses that didn't understand the fine print.

I ask God, to forgive those who have put us in this mess.

Yes, The US has betrayed its Christianity root and allowed abortionists, gays, the NRA and tobacco lobbies, the special interest groups and postmodernism to go rampant, you should refer to the Bible, Isiah and Jeremiah to see how God has punished these countries who worshipped the idols and betrayed God's covenants. The current financial melt down is just a warning from God, the Christian leaders should wake up like you and pray for America's repentance and spiritual revival, if it is not too late already.

Well, be careful not calling God's name in vain.

I hope you are joking, it is funny but not that funny at the same time.

Well watchdog1, your assumption that this is all happening because of our allowing abortionists, gays, the NRA and tobacco lobbies, the special interest groups and postmodernism to go rampant is arrogant.

Our forefathers did not found this country on the basis of Christianity.  Separation of Church and State was only one of the MAJOR reasons for our separating from England in the first place.

I disagree that idiots are running the country. The problem was greed. everyone from appraisers, lenders, customers wanting cash out loans, Wall Street and over seas investors wanted money, money, money. Now it has come back on them. I think this was the first business venture that everyone from customer to final investor knew the loans were bad and ignored it. Now our whole economy is suffering. Again, file BK get rid of the Unions and start all over.

Sorry, but it seems as if God is punishing the wrong people.  The rich and greedy are still rich and greedy.  The poor and middle class are just getting poorer.  Seems a bit off balance doesn't it?

Watchdog1 get over yourself!  PaulWillTerry: funny but remember we ALL have to be politically correct nowadays!  People like watchdog will tell you and me how we are supposed to think and act!  Only they KNOW what is acceptable!  And if you don't believe just wait for the response to this e-mail! 

none Cheeto63

People like watchdog will tell you and me how we are supposed to think and act!  Only they KNOW what is acceptable!  And if you don't believe just wait for the response to this e-mail! 

Sir, I have no intention to tell you what to think and act. On the contrary, I don't think that I know what is acceptable, because only God knows and I am only a sinner, who was saved by His grace. Therefore my response to you only serves as a good will. Please take it or leave it as you wish.

Obviously for those who called names are not even believers in God and haven't read the Bible for ages. If you don't believe in God, wait and see how far this stern warning from God will go. As a nation, America has committed sins against the almighty God.

John 3:16 (King James Version)

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life

DaughRevWar writes.... "And please, don't count us in with those who have sinned against HIM. I know my family didn't have anything to do with this."

I had to read this twice, actually three times, to make sure my cold hasn't taken over my thought processes.  This is pretty frightening to me.  The idea that someone would keep at arms length from a "sinner" so God does not get confused and think you one of them is ludicrous.   I mean, I know in my heart that no matter what the person standing next to me does, God KNOWS who it is... It's not going to rub off and He gets confused... Please...

Just what the hell does god have to do with this article? The world needs less "god" and more common sense and reason, not to mention compassion and love, something SORELY missing from modern christianity. Fanatics are sinking the ship with their frenzied facilitation of Armegeddon. So please give it a rest. Those of us actually working to make this world a better place are being drug down by those who say a prayer for someone to help that doesn't exist.

As far as the article is concerned, letting GM fail is a double edged sword. On the one hand you would get rid of an outdated and overly greedy UAW, but then the domino effect would be the incredible loos of peripheral industries, which could be really dangerous. It really is not an easy solution.

Verily, verily... And Man created God in His image.
How in the world does an article on car manufacturer's bailout end up being a discussion on religion?

I agree 100% with watchdog.

zep... I was replying to the poster above who started this foolishness about religion and bailouts...

I agree Let them sink.Hopefully they can get used to using an out door toilet in 30 degree below weather & have a cold ass .Welcome to the real world.Greedy bunch of AUTO WORKERS I REALY THINK U FEEL SORRY FOR THE SINGLE MOM OUT THERE TRYING TO RAISE HER CHILFREN ME ME ME & YOUR FAT PAY CHEQUES U HAVE BEEN USED TO WELL LETS JOIN THE REST OF US & GET USED TO WORKING FOR THE AVERAGE PAY>SORRY NO SYMPATHY FROM ME

sailene

so its the auto wokers fault that your hillbilly ass is in a toilet 30 degree below, go away you idiot

I agree Congress is wanting them to cut thier pay for piss poor job performance.. LOL This is the worse Congress in history..

I agree with your statement, How much of this bail out is actually going to other countries? I believe that all three of these Dinosaurs have plants in other country's around the world.

One other thing, How is the Auto workers Union going to add there cuts to the total?

The union works should take a cut as well. If they want to save their  $18.00 to $25.00 per hour jobs to screw in a few nuts and bolts . Let's face reality, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to do that job They should take a hit as well.

Can I get a Amen

How true. They have an approval rating below Bush, can you imagine that? Yet, 87% of the congress and senate were reelected. Who are the fools? The American voter....

Congress has given this country a black eye, maybe two.  If anyone should work for a dollar a year they should.  I can't understand how they are going to evaluate the changes the auto industry is willing to make. You can't make sense of what they do.

vcaragiu:  you make some excellent points but the people you are making them to (congress / Big 3) could care less!  So people like you and I (the Little People they are so concerned about) will never be heard! 

Ummmmm Mike,  AIG got at least 3 bail outs.  Then they went on executive 500K retreats afterwards.

Systematically kill?  I'm pretty sure these business's got themselves into this mess.   I don't think any of them should have been bailed out.  I'm not saying any of this bailout business is justified, in fact I think it out right criminal to be honest.  I truly feel bad for the UAW employees, but these companies deserve to go down.  It will finally allow smaller companies like Tesla to actually have a chance in the market, and entrepreneurs will be much more motivated to make drastic changes and innovations to the auto industry.  Not to mention being a little more "fiscally conservative"

Citi got a bail out because of ALL it's holdings & franchises in foreign countries.  You think they hate us now!  They'd really hate us if we didn't cover our bets, so to speak.  This was all a big gamble on the parts of these greedy bankers.  And yes, Pelosi was quick to give AIG monies because her hubby own tons of AIG. 

LEAVE THE OIL COMPANIES ALONE.  If they fail, we all fail.  Big mouth Obumer kept making fun of them for making a profit.  How stupid can you be.

Let the big-3 dig themselves out.  They should have been paying attention to the competition.  These CEO's that all went to these elite colleges like Harvard, must all be a bunch of dumb idiots.  I would never hire a Harvard graduate again. 

You wouldn't hire a Harv grad again....you didn't "hire" BO, did you?  I'm betting not (neither did I).  I just found your comment to be funny....and the rest to be quite true.

feel sorry for UAW employees... pa-leeeeeeeez.... you and i both wish that we had the hourly wage and benefits that those people had.... quite frankly, they are part of the greed that is killing the american car manufacturers......

to hell in a hand basket to all the greed that fueled Detroit for decades..... hey, time for a reality check... you build overpriced junky cars and the poop hits the fan.... reality check!  I heard that Honda and Toyota are hiring..............

Thats right.  I will lose no sleep over a UAW employee losing there job. Thats right, they go into the jobs bank, get a pay cut to 31 dollars an hour and don't do anything.  Time they get a real job. 

This country needs the auto industry to bail them selves out by filing bankruptcy and getting rid of the union.  If our auto industry fails it is not America's fault but there own, management and employees.  They build a terrible product and expect us to buy there trash cause it will save there jobs.  I would rather by car built by someone that actually cares about what they do for a living.

No money for the big 3 and Congress needs to take a pay cut or they also can work for a dollar a year.

DaughterRevWar-I would never hire a Harvard graduate again.

LOL, you just elected one (hired) from Harvard.

And since most do not know.  His running mate another Lawyer from Delaware who represents his clients at Delaware:

Delaware, Business, Economy: Freddie Mac, Fanny Mae, Bank of America, Wilmington Trust, First USA / Bank One / JPMorgan Chase, AIG, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Barclays plc, GM, Chrysler, Wachovia, ExxonMobil, Chevron, ISDA, and those States with Corporations Incorporated at Delaware.

List from Encyclopediae 1990-2007.   Recognize them (list above).
 
Especially, ISDA. The People that brought you:  the 60 to 100 Trillion USD (it is not 700 Billion USD US Economic Crisis) Global Economic Crisis.  These people will be back for more just like GM, Ford, Chysler, September 2008, 25 Billion, 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, to milk the cash cow.  updated add: AIG, Billions USD.  The 60 to 100 Trillion USD does not include the usary interest protected by the Delaware Court of Chancery.

International Swaps and Derrivatives Association Incorporated (Delaware).  isda.org
 
Over 50% of US publicly-traded corporations and 60% of the Fortune 500 companies are incorporated in Delaware;[1] the state's attractiveness as a corporate haven is largely due to its business-friendly corporation law. Franchise taxes on Delaware corporations supply about one-fifth of its state revenue.[2]

1. Delaware Corporate Notebook

2. Delaware General Fund 2007 By Category.

Note: I posted this information August 2008 (post #6.7).  After years of research.  Mostly to figure out the Stock Market for personal investments and to incorporate my company.

I was called everything imaginable, except correct.  So, I TOLD YOU SO.

   Its the foreign car companys and their right to work laws in the south and special tax breaks from the southern states and shills like Shelby and others who need to get a clue. Detroit is here to stay. New mangement and restructuring by retooling which they already have money for will make them viable again. 2.5 million American jobs will go down the tubes if they don't. Which means more housing foreclosures more on the unemployment roles and more people looking for jobs that are so totally scarce already. But if it works the way Republicans want it they will break the Union and thats all this is about.

Before anyone asks, Yes, I do know how to unf^%#, this situation based on my Research, since 1990s.  Cause and Effect.

However, with my current situation, fighting Legal battles with the US Military for reinstatement due to illegal (prejudicial) separation, I can do nothing.

logdump  with the previous Bailout Money 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, the last being in 2002.  Historically, the Obese 3 have used the Bailout money for "retooling" by building new factories in Mexico and Canada while closing US Factories, having multimillion USD Corporate Board Member Parties with Congress Members and Rock bands, Hunting Trips, Vacations, voting themselves payraises, better benefits, etc.. All while handing US workers pinkslips and layoff notices.

The stipulations to the previous Bailouts were better fuel economy, less pollution, etc..  Now being demanded by Congress (adherance to previous 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, agreements, terms and conditions)

As far as "the south" and the tax incentives, what would you do if your State did not have anyone from a US Corporation willing to spend money in your State to build a factory so that your constituents would be employed.  And that all the US Corporations were willing to "outsource" to Mexico or Canada instead of your State.

And ok, I failed to mention on my list the Indiana HondaUSA Plant that just opened, 2008.  So no, it is not just "the southern" States.

How about the government bails out the workers as they lose their job.  How much would $25 Billion for 3 - 13 million workers be?  (Depending on who you listen to).

By the way, wasn't GM building an SUV factory in Russia?  Why are we paying for that?

"They should have been paying attention to the competition"

DaughRev didn't expect that out of you.  The only reason the competition is surviving is because they were able to see the mistakes made by the big 3 and model their business according.  The UAW was here long before Toyota and Honda started becoming an influence in the American market.

This coarse of action was going to happen due to high medical and pensions that have been an issue facing our blue collar assembly line plants for years.

The manufacturing model that had been and industry standard when the UAW was young is defunct and needs to be revamped.  Thank God that our new partners in the auto industry had this model to learn from and hopefully we will not see this in the future.

Interesting to note that Toyota and Honda's North American plants are all paying very close to union wages at their non-union plants. Why? Because they know that the products their work force builds are worthy of a good wage in return for quality work. And because NA unions set the bar at a respectable level for the work being done.

The media often reports 'total labor cost' numbers as if they were actual wages. But the fact is the term refers to all labor related charges, including pensions, benefits, and payroll taxes like Unemployment insurance premiums and income taxes paid to government.

If a factory was building television sets that cost between $800 and $1500, of course they couldn't pay the same wage because the return on the finished product would not support that type of wage. But the auto makers know that 7% of the total cost of a new vehicle as a wage indicator is still a pretty good deal. Why do you think these companies agree to the wages being paid?  Because they're smart enough to know that the bottom line won't be affected by it. And they can still produce their products while turning a handsome profit. At least until now.

Seems the well is starting to dry up.It is estimated that in Canada, the CAW (of which I am a member, nothing to hide here) could have all of its members work for free for an entire year and the resulting savings would offset the Big 3's average 2008 losses for only 11 days.

But what precipitated the drought in the first place? Everything was rolling along pretty smoothly up until Free Trade was introduced by NA government in Canada and the U.S. Now, North America imports over 4 million vehicles from offshore per year. The import market share has tripled since 1996. In Canada alone, auto imports from Japan have grown 118% while exports have shrunk by 69%. Canadian trade deficit with Japan equals $6.3 billion. For every dollar exported to Japan, Canada imports $135. I'm not sure about the American numbers but if little old Canada with a total population of 30 - 35 million people is taking this kind of hit, imagine the scale of the disaster hitting the U.S. right now.

But it appears the import companies won't escape from this unscathed either. U.S. sales for the Detroit 3 fell 41% this past October compared to the previous year. But they weren't alone. Others hard hit by the credit freeze in the U.S. include:

Suzuki (down 49%) , Isuzu ( down 49%) , Kia ( down 41%) , Lexus (down 38%) , Nissan ( down 36%) , Hyundai ( down 34%) , Honda (down 28%) , and Toyota ( down 26%).

With so many people losing their jobs and their homes, banks are failing because there's no money to pay the debt load. So there's no money to be had for car loans or mortgages. And when all the dust settles, and over 2 million people have lost their livlihoods and find themselves on unemployment and welfare, or maybe even homelessness, poor and destitute, who will shoulder the blame? The unions?  Because they refused to allow their members to be exploited? I hope not. I think most people are too intelligent to think such rubbish. How about the consumer? How long have american industries been imploring the consumer to BUY LOCAL!

So after we play the blame game, what next? Kay serra, serra? OK. Fine. Just be ready to accept whatever we end up with. I'll be able to hold my head up high knowing that I gave a good days work in return for a good wage. I know I didn't take advantage of a good thing by accepting money I didn't earn. I'll be broke too. But I'll still feel good about what I and my union brothers and sisters did on the assembly lines.

One more thing. I'm sure there are a few of you who are reading this that will still think we are (or were) overpaid and underworked. You're entitled to your opinion. That's what living in a free country is all about. I just wanted to say some of the things on my mind in defense of the auto industry and its workforce. And as far as God is concerned (see above comments), if He ever existed or still does, please leave Him out of it. There will be no divine interventions. Face it. We're on our own here.

I agree, Congress does not work for the people. Most are greedy and dishonest. Spending our tax dollars on special groups or themselves. They should take paycuts and pay for benefits to realize how we have to cope with the economy. Rising medical and food cost.

Mike

What a novel idea. When your congress person comes home to run for reelection plan on asking that very question, I do. They have to face us and that will be the time to let them know we are watching them.

For all the good it might do.

If that is the case Bush should be paying us back for the rest of his life.

A law 'should' be passed that allows the people to review congressional performance each year and place a value on each individuals performance.

I agree, then we can get rid of the Dem run house and senate....  Worst job performance and approval rating in history.

     Who got voted out in the last election? Republicans. Thats why the job performance was so bad. Holding up bills was all they did and they paid for it.

Try again, the last 2 years as we have seen our economy decline can be directly attributed to the dems in control.  Lets not go into Freddie and Fannie, Pelosi, Ried, Franks all over again.  No party is perfect but this dem controlled congress has done zero in 2 years and will do nothing but give away tax payer money for the next 2 years.

Congress, not the President, holds the "Purse Strings".

Mike

It's amazing how quickly people have shifted from the R to the D in blaming stuff on people in congress. It's kinda like some sort of legislative relay race where the next runner of influence is ready to take his or her turn at being a backroom power broker. Aren't they all?  

Blame where Blame is due.  Congress holds the Purse Strings, not the President.

stands for dumb ass

I have no issue with doing the right thing.  I have read the big 3's plans.  I now wait to read UAW's plan (which they won't put in writing). 

Any bailout that is giving must state that zero, nada, none, not one red cent goes to retire pay, medical pay for retired employees, pension plans, and or anything that has anything UAW in the writing.

Once bailout money is approved, all legacy cost (bills,Payments  must become fully funded by the UAW only and not the manufacturer. 

Once bailout money is approved, the average salary must be in line with the national average of those companies not asking for a bailout. 

The only question I really have from reading the big 3's plans is, why do they keep comparing themselves with Toyota, I don't believe Toyota is asking for any money from the taxpayers.  If they opporated like Toyota they wouldn't be in this problem.

P Locke I see you have bought into the BS you have heard from God knows where.  News flash, autoworkers DO NOT make 70.00 an hour even with benefits included.  It's actually about 28.00 per hour in salary (top out) and when you add in benefits it increases but not to 70.00 per hour.   You might want to research that a little before you go to spewing all over the place about it.  Unless of course you don't mind looking like a stooge that believes everything they hear.

Shellie

I too have heard that $70.00 number tossed around. Whatever the case may be you seem to have some kind of inside scoop on a more accurate figure for total compensation. So, if it isn't $70.00 an hour, what is it?

Assuming your number is more correct than mine, what are you arguing?  Are you implying that the fact that they make $50 and hour instead of $70 somehow means that GM is a better company?  Obviously your assertion changes nothing.

Other than an attempted personal slight, I don't see the relevance of your attack to the conversation.  You have done nothing toward making a logical argument that contradicts mine.  (In the words of Billy Madison's principal, "the world is now dumber for having heard you speak, may God have mercy on our soul.")  The points in my argument are still valid.  Please argue the opposing viewpoint.  I would love to respond.  Thanks.

P. Locke There are many variables into how you figure in a workers salary i.e. health ins.-amount determined by cost of it, life ins.-amount detemined by cost of it, retirement plan-amount determined by cost of it so and so forth!  These variables are from independent companies not affiliated with the purchasing company. I believe shellie was essentially trying to say these workers are LIVING OFF OF 28.00/hr not 70.00 which is a HUGE DIFFERENCE. We all live off of TAKE HOME PAY! I really doubt the negotiating president and his team Held guns to the heads of these motor companie CEO's when dealing.  This failure was not an overnight flounder but had been festering for years of greed and corruption within their upper echelon ranks  Falsification of numbers and stats-pushing the pencil blinded future preparedness for what was to transpire , so in short  the car manufacturers didn't HAVE to agree to these concessions of the unions but they did and people like you that has probably never worked at a UNION JOB CAN'T AND WILL NOT UNDERSTAND! you can't argue a viewpoint with someone who hasn't been in place to have a view!

My friend works at GM, and I know for a fact he gets 28.00 and hour. With a little research I found out that Honda's U.S. hourly workers,  made an average $24.25 an hour, or $26.20 with the $4,485 bonus they received in November and Nissan workers are paid $24 an hour in Mississippi and $26 an hour in Tennessee. It doesn't seem that far out of line.

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/

How did the $70 per hour myth grow roots? Conservative analysts have chosen to divide the automakers' total personnel expenses by the number of active workers. This means that $70 per hour statistic includes all pensions and benefits being paid to retirees - in other words, other people.

Our friend's dad had a farm in the midwest..and worked in one of the "big3" plants at night for 30 years as a porter (sweeping floors/general janitorial work)...he retired a few years ago...his pension is....$6,000/mo and FULL medical benefits...

...so you can just imagine how much those above his "pay grade" get in retirement benefits....

I value worker compensation not only by the actual amount they are paid via check at the end of the pay period (you say $28), but also by adding (1) health insurance, (2) dental insurance, (3) bonus, (4) insurance the employer must carry in case of on the job accidents, (5) union fees, (6) 401k contributions, (7) stock potion plans, and (8) pension contributions (feel free to add more if you think of them).  When you take all of these things into account, the $28 of take home pay is not what the "Big 3" actually had to pay to employ a person on an assembly line.  The figure is at least twice that amount. 

Even if we only look at the $28 figure, is that amount really competitive with the rest of the world?

One argument I have heard (but not researched) is that, during the 70's, the "Big 3" decided it would be "good business" (good business in the sense that it made the CEO at the time look good by artificially increasing earnings) to defer workers pay-check salaries by increasing pensions benefits, etc...  The argument goes that this decision is the root cause of the Big 3's expense problems today.

Regardless, I still maintain that these companies are inefficient, poorly managed, and unable to compete in the competitive market (whether it's because of high wages, unpopular product lines, inefficient manufacturing, defective products, or whatever).  If a company gets as bad as the Big 3 have apparently gotten, our capitalist, free market philosophy dictates that they should either restructure or fail.  The American taxpayer (you and I) should not be responsible to pay for the life support.

Even if we only look at the $28 figure, is that amount really competitive with the rest of the world?    YES,  most U.S. non-union jobs keeps a close eye on their union counterparts talks and will keep their wages comparatively close like within $5 / hr.  The japanese companies actually take very good care of their employees both here and in Japan.  They have realized a happy worker is a good worker!  Unfortunately that isn't the case with CORPORATE AMERICA. GREED IS WHERE IT'S AT. In my company the chain of command goes as followed :   ceo- 4 presidents 8vice presidents, 32 regional heads, 128 district managers, 640 assistant district managers,  and many more management under them but, I stopped after assistant dist. mgr. because these all make over 6 digit figure take home salaries NOT INCLUDING benefits, half of the rest make well over 6 digit with benefits added!  Now where is the fat?!?  Let's see pencil pushers HRUMPF HRUMPF - PRODUCTIVITY LITTLE!!!  $28/hr puts the product out to the consumer to pay the gluts of command.  LET'S NOT FORGET the PERKS that production is not privy too!                                                                                            

Auto workers make on average $25.00 per hour.....a lot less than the $35.00 an hour required to live in this country.

Ok Crazy Irishman, lets assume for the sake of argument that I concede that US Autoworkers are not being paid more than workers in China, Japan, Thailand, and elsewhere.  I'll assume for the sake of argument that the health benefits, pensions, 401k's, etc... that they are receiving as part of their compensation packages do not improve their standard of living.  I'll ignore for the sake of argument that fact that, because of these benefits, the autoworkers don't have to use any of that $28 in take home pay to buy health insurance, dental insurance, save for retirement, etc... I'll pretend that, like the rest of us nonunion workers, they would have to pay for these benefits out of their own paycheck.  And, I won't draw and analogy between the assembly line workers making automobiles at the big three for $28 and the assembly line working making sandwiches at McDonald's for minimum wage and no benefits.

Does that somehow make the Big 3 viable, well-managed companies worthy of a bailout? 

Crazy - you're exactly right. Most american business owners are too greedy and arogant to give a damn about their employees. If ut were up to them we weould all be making 5.00 hr top end no benefits or retirement. As a business analyst I can tell you the average wage (for labor) is about 13.00 hr in domestic auto plants plus benefits that the workers do pay a little toward. The total is close to the 28 figure given earlier. The hourly rate is lower in American plants of Honda and BMW HOWEVER there is no charge at all for benefits more vacation time (we're the only country that is not liberal with vacation time - actually down right greedy with it) and bonuses - very generous bonuses. The total hourly rate is actually more in foreign auto make plant in the US. But that goes along with the Europeans and Japanese taking care of their workers. Europeans are very LOYAL to their workers American will screw them at every chance!  

Hey gozo what kills me is alot keep mentioning $70/hr which includes their benefits! Isn't that moronic .  When for the past 16years people been whining about no healthcare or other benefits but yet they castise the Unions for being a huge part of this problem. DAMN THOSE PEOPLE for having a decent wage,health insurance, life insurance and a pension they deserve NOTHING theyJUST MAKE CARS----the way their told,not designed by themselves fiscally managed by others---but THE WORKERS DESERVE BUBKISS  they are as much of the problem---they should live in squaller and eat from the trash they have NO RIGHTS to live comfortably with creature comforts WHAT SCUM!    GO UNION!

 Remember the view comment I made earlier well those benefits are not JUST PAID BY THE COMPANY if you had that view you would KNOW part of those benefits like HALF are paid by the worker themself and the company pays for the other part It's not FREE to the employee! Without VIEW you have nothing!

Thanks , you have expressed what I have been thinlking , I would only add to those who say bail out the auto industry because we would need it to be retooled in a USA defense situation as they were used in WW11. Reorganizing and becoming leaner will allow for a more viable  and flexible existance.Chapter 11 means clearing debt not moving and selling everything or closing everything. 

As it stands retooling for anything is prohibitive  because of the governmental and union restrictions. Sorry for the Union folks but $70-100 per hour to assist a robot to put part A into part B is just way too much. I am sure the people who made the Buggy and its assesories faced the same dilema when the auto came along .Plus to be paid a large % of salary to not work and to have this go on for years was legal theft. Time to move along...you have killed the golden goose. Your counterparts at the other manufacturers plants put more care and effort into their product than you did and we choose them it was not the size or the gas guzzlers as I dont give a flying monkey about driving a lawn mower on wheels . Global warming and cooling were here long before the automobile and it will be here long after .But I did care about the defective rear right spring that snapped in half on my sons bought new in  2006 Chevy Malibu SS  the defectiv radiator, defective fob ,intermediate steering shaft,  defective front rotors and the defective drive shaft plus replacing the tie rods all done with under 40,000 miles .Even though many of these things were defective we still had out of pocket costs we have spoken to other people who own GM products and we are all !@#$%*&%you start producing a better product and the world will beat a path to your door

  A pension and benefits at retirement is one thing a buyout with a specific formula and final   Dollor amount also acceptable. Paying people for  years to not work as the parts or models that were produced at a particular plant was not needed is just nuts. 

 I wish these CEO's would get some backbones and  be real  strong authoritive leaders  who are in control instead of whimps hanging onto their girlish feelings begging for crumbs. They make me so angry and sad to see them hat in hand begging the likes of Barney Fife and the turkey necked Pelosi for crumbs. Just file  Chapter 11 and reorganize . If the workers believe so much in their product and jobs have the workers buy shares and stocks in the company,become the new ownership. .They would become part owners and therefore able to determine terms to management  and cut the Union out. Hey they could save themselves the union dues. Guranteed the Union bosses are making bucket loads , think they would also agree to $1 per year?

GMs CEO might be a dunce but the workers have been allowed by the Union to produce a Shoddy product with poor Quality controll. Our family has been enjoying much stress from one of their products.

Last time I saw Japanese workers get ---14 weeks of vacation! Could you imagine!

"workers have been allowed by the Union to produce a Shoddy product"  AimHigh---Products are built to designer and engineering specs that is approved by MANAGMENT!  So workers do what is told of them to do THERE IS NO CHOICE!  The Union is there to PROTECT THE WORKERS RIGHTS not do managments work if you had a view you could understand that. DARKNESS PREVAILS.  Unions do NOT tell managment what to do.DARKNESS PREVAILS.  I do feel the AMERICAN BRAND not MADE products do stink but it's attributed to managments lack of vision! Why build better when were getting rich already--who cares about the future, that is their philosophy!

You know, it seems to me, after reading these comments that we have two separate debates going.  (1) The first debate (the one I intended to start) concerns whether the US auto industry deserves to be bailed out. (2) The second debate (the one Crazy Irishman and others are having) seems to concern whether the employees are overpaid and whether the union is a bad th ing.

As far as debate #(1) goes, you have my view on that (above).  In short form: Don't use my hard earned money to bail out the Big 3.

Debate #(2) is an entirely different question.  Firstly, I am of the opinion that workers deserve whatever cash and benefits they can get a company to agree to pay them.  If GM and the others agrees to pay their employees more than they are worth, then that's just bad business--not the employees fault (but, isn't this an argument against the bailout?)  

Crazy Irishman, I am a small business owner that does not have to deal with unionized employees.  So, your "view" comment may be appropriate.  Maybe UAW workers aren't netting as much income as is commonly perceived, but the question remains "is the amount of money they require the Big 3 to pay a reasonable sum for menial labor?" 

In a free market you have buyers and sellers.  Without unionization, the business is the buyer (of labor) and the laborer is the seller.  Generally, the business offers a sum for the labor (wages) and laborers willing to perform a task for that amount show up and begin work.  If the business offers too little, no one shows up, and no work gets done. 

The problem I have with unions is that they monopolize the labor market an begin charging more for labor than the laborors would have otherwise charged.  They (the unions) lobbied and got federal statutes enacted mandating that employers deal with unions if, by secret ballot, the unions received an "up" vote of 50.1% of the workers for a company.  After the union gets in, it is able  to control the supply  of laborers.  In essence, the laborer willing to do the work for less is forced to go elsewhere or join the union and charge more.  Unions inflate wages. 

Of course, this is great from the worker's perspective in the short run (and good for society in the short run generally because it redistributes wealth that would otherwise have been taken out of the economy by management and owners).  But,  in the long run, when you factor international competition into the mix (and the ability of companies to seek labor in other markets), it results in either: (a) a flight of job opportunities abroad or (b) the employer not being competittive with foreign companies who have lower, free market-rate labor costs. 

In the end the laborer who overcharges for his labor ends up unemployed one way or another.  I've heard some of you mention Japan as a country to compare our wages to, but Japan, like us, no longer produces much in-country.  Wages are too high for their products to be competitive in international markets if they produce domestically.  As a result, they have outsourced most of their production to Southeast Asia where labor is cheap. 

So, in the end, the question becomes, not what is "fair" for the worker to earn, but what is it that the labor market is willing to pay the worker to work?  If there are others willing to build cars for $8 an hour (instead of working for $7 with no benefits at McDonald's), then why would it be "unfair" for the Big 3 to use that free market labor instead of the $28+ an hour union labor?  And, if we all know that forcing employers to use the expensive labor will either (a) drive employers out of the country or (b) bankrupt the employers by keeping them from competing with foreign producing companies, why make them use it--why enact statutes mandating unionization?

PLoke maybe you could just consider paying your employees a livable wage and give them decent benefits with a little time off to spend with family - there union abolished no need. That's something the Amrican businessman would NEVER consider!!!

P.locke a) Juries still out on debate 1-automakers produce war products we may need again but, not all the way decided-sorry. b)The only attempt of control a union tries to use on hiring of employees is to hire more due to the production/total hours worked and use of overtime to do the job NEVER will a union try to do away with a hiring unless it is a contracted out job that a Union person could be performing. b1) lobbying is and has become an unfortunate pandering of BOTH sides but a worker should HAVE THE RIGHT TO VOTE for a union with no worries of repercussion by the owner--EMPLOYEE FREE CHOICE ACT! The bad thing is anycompany with under 50 employees is thrown into that barrel which could kill the business. Listen dude if companys agree to salaries and benefits at the contract table and upper managment are receiving a 400% marked up salary as opposed to worker receiving a 20% salary then the only one to blame for not earning their pay should be upper managment because they did not figure in any attributes of what if scenerios that MUST be calculated before an agreement.

CRAZY IRISHMAN - P.locke a) Juries still out on debate 1-automakers produce war products we may need again but, not all the way decided-sorry.

The US Military Industrial Complex stopped trusting the Obese 3 after the 1994 NAFTA and CAFTA, because by LAW they must buy from US only sources, unless they receive a special rarily granted waiver from Congress.  After NAFTA and CAFTA by Law they could no longer buy from the Obese 3 because their products were being made in Mexico and Canada.  This forced the US Military to open Government Owned, Government Operated (GO/GO) Factories, and Government Owned, Contractor Operated (GO/CO) Factories, similiar to World War II.

Crazy Irishman,  there was a gun held to there heads when they negotiated there contracts, they were going to stop working.  They were going to bankrupt the auto industry if needed.  The Unions have out lived there need and now just survive for there own greed.  I have worked both sides of the isle, Union and Management.  Both sides have there faults but I gave up on Unions long ago as there corruption and intimidation grew.  The best thing that could happen to the Auto Industry would for them to strip themselves of the Unions. 

Tell me you honestly believe the auto industry couldn't find someone willing to work for half of what the overpaid UAW employees currently get.  Union greed didn't kill the American auto industry but it has crippled it's ability to compete with the world markets.  Enough is enough, union free, better product.  In the end, the only jobs lost will be those Union thugs who walk around the plants trying to subvert production and get paid out of dues that in the end comes from the pay raises they demand every contract whether or not the companies they work for are trying to survive. 

Sorry Jim, but Crazy Irishman is right and you are wrong. Sure, there are people willing to work for half of a current auto workers wage but only because they need a job badly and will probably work for less. That doesn't make it OK for corporations to fire one union guy in favor of the cheaper non-union guy. 

If that was the principle at all companies, man, what a sorry state of affairs for North American businesses! You might as well toss out the whole concept and institute slavery again. When did it become a bad thing to want to make a good enough wage to be able to afford a car and a home for your family, put food on the table, see to their insurance needs, clothing and education, maybe even a small nest egg for retirement after a long life of working hard to make your bosses rich?

When did it become a bad thing to want to be able to earn enough to be comfortable in life. Where does it state in our constitution that if anyone is poor and struggling, then we all deserve to be poor and struggling too?

Here's what I think in a nutshell.

We all want to get ahead. So we instinctively try to save money. This includes any and all purchases that come out of our own pockets. Offshore companies with cheap labor  (automobiles, electronics, clothing, even some foods) see an opportunity to sell their less expensive goods to the big North American market. We all bite. We all lose. Profits go back to the countries where the products were generated and re-invested there to make even more products to sell to us. Eventually our market size shrinks and workers get laid off. More people end up on welfare and eventually we have an economic crisis much like what we are seeing now. And we look for a scapegoat. AHA! Those bastard UNIONS are responsible!

Nope, not buying it. We're all responsible. And it's time to face up to it.

Yep, what a sacrifice ya know?  The man is already worth billions of dollars and the rest of the board members are worth millions.  They must have have it pretty rough.

It's legal to have a "salary" of $1.00/year....California Gov is doing it

Yes....married to a Kennedy, and loaded before his elections.  Mayor Bloomberg of NYC does the same....he's a mulitmillionaire....others do it too: they are quite wealthy and don't require a salary.  Can't say the same for members of Congress, esp Pelosi, etc., who were uber-loaded before their election but continue to take a (IMHO, 'ridiculous') salary, free healthcare, food, residence, the list is endless (seemigly).

Your friend is unAmerican.  The Obese 3 since they pushed thru Lobbists the passage of the 1994 NAFTA and CAFTA outsourced most of the American Jobs to Mexico and Canada.  Obese 3 Vehicles are preassembled in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada and Toluca, Mexico, and shipped to the US for installation of one or two nuts or bolts Made in China, with the label Made in the USA put on the door.

So unless your friend is talking about the cars made at Alabama, Tennesse, Indiana, Texas, Washington, Oregon, Nevada, Louisiana, Virginia, Mississippi, Kentucky, California, New Mexico, Arizona, etc. by ToyotaUSA, HondaUSA, NissanUSA, Hyundai USA, your friend is talking about supporting and laying off Americans by buying from the Obese 3.

If you do not believe this go to the dealerships of the Obese 3 and look at the inside door panel label.  Do not ask the dealer to do this, pick one at random.  Also go to the parts department, ask for a part, read the label, "Made in", "Assembled in".  Last time I checked I do not believe that Mexico and Canada are the 51st and 52nd States of the United States of America.

This is true.

I still wish that they (Obese 3) would not have pushed the Politicians to force the DOT to change the Safety Standards to stop the 1970s Foreign Car Invasion.

This is one of the main reasons, unknown to most that have not lived overseas (not just visited), that the GM Opel, Ford AG vehicles (high mileage, exceeding all US) that adhere to the International TUV Safety Standards (proven safer by survivability by category) are not allowed in the US.  Many will blame things like diesel emmissions, etc. without looking at the Greens Party (a Political Party in Europe, like the Republican or Democratic Party here in the USA) European Emmission Standards (stricter than USA).

This includes the E100 and Flex Fuel vehicles made by GM, Ford, VW, Toyota, Peugot at South America.  3 Million E100, over 6 Million Flex Fuel, not including transport vehicles.

Angry

So we bail out the auto guys and everything goes OK for awhile. How can we be sure that they will make smarter, long term business decisions in future?

I agree the bailout is a short term solution without a profound shift in business perspective. I think the whole notion of satisfying stock holders with short term gains while ignoring the future with bad or non existent planning needs to be looked at. I don't want to revisit this stuff in 10 years because business continued being stupid.

First of all this is a loan from financial institutions, not the government.  The government is backing the loan, they are then able to pay for supplies and wages. This money works while they wait for sales to recover the money they have out on the books for the vehicles.  I read some of these comments and can understand how screwed up government and business has become.  Education is the one thing you shouldn't skip!!!!!

Well Gus i am educated...and by no means on God's green earth should we bailout these companies...If they don't know how to run a business and have gotten this far off the track then they don't need to be in business....God knows that in America there are dozens of people ready to take over....not for one second am I buying their dog and pony show....You don't produce you take a hike.......

Ah, because they are on this list.  I'll let you figure this one out, if you did not read my previous post.

Delaware: Freddie Mac, Fanny Mae, Bank of America, Wilmington Trust, First USA / Bank One / JPMorgan Chase, AIG, Citigroup, Deutsche Bank, Barclays plc, GM, Chrysler, Wachovia, ExxonMobil, Chevron, ISDA, and those States with Corporations Incorporated at Delaware.

Source: Encyclopediae, 1990-2007.

humpty, your story is not all that uncommon.

our legal system should allow people whose pension funds or other company assets have been robbed by management to sue the managers to recover whatever assets the managers have, whether in the US or offshore. these guys should be thrown in prison.

"...Chrysler Chief Executive Robert Nardelli said he would work for $1 a year, and a similar commitment is expected from GM CEO Rick Wagoner."

Hey, $1 a year is not bad, just can't wait for the big bonus at the end of the year.  LOL

LOL....good one entkitty! No one has promised that they wouldn't take it if it was offered!

pking557......... It's hard to believe that anyone could actually believe anything else.  For these clowns to make statements like this is insult to injury.  Why not forfeit their entire over compensation that they have received over the years, and become real heroes of the auto industry.

And you can bank on THIS: Come tax time, and with a 'loss' of their mulit-million salaries, don't think for one minute that they won't claim that 'loss' on their income taxes! They'll get it back, just you wait and see....ridiculous.

The guy from Ford has only been working for the auto industry for the last nine months or so.  He received about $115,000,000 in severence pay from his last job (literally - I'm not making it up).  I think he can afford to work for a dollar a year.

Kind of reminds you of the CEO that worked for WaMu for 3 weeks or so, then got a HUGE severance package, huh?

Someone who truly cared about their company and employees would sink every last dollar they had to their name into their busniess.  That's how these companies were started.  These CEO's should be willing to empty their personal bank accounts to bail themselves out.  This makes me sick to my stomach

mojo

If congress were to pass a law limiting exec comp and bonuses those people would have two options, either accept the limitations or start their own business and hope it is successful enough to pay themselves any amount they like. The type of person who runs a huge company, or goes throught the motions, will have to go somewhere for his or her power fix. If they didn't like the playing field here maybe they could go to China or anywhere else and hope for the best, salary wise.

I think our whole notion of business and so called free enterprise is going through a profound shift. If 'market forces', that invisible something we have been taught to believe determines economics, say that a business has failed it should be allowed to go under. I don't see how we can believe anymore of the capitalist claptrap when big, failed business runs to the govt for welfare handouts.

So called business leaders are leaders alright, the lead in plunder, greed and incompetence. And the idiots in congress and govt are right down there with them.

The problem is that these ceos, boardmembers etc. aren't owners of these companies. They are employees, just glorified clerks. Henry Ford may have possessed the committment of which you speak, but these guys? C'mon.

I totally agree.  If we as taxpayers are expected to put our money into their companies, they should at least have to match the funds from their own pockets.  And as far as only taking $1 for his salary, how much tax money is he going to pay on that?  That means not only is he not putting any of his own money in now, but since he isn't going to be paying taxes (or at least very little) on his multi-million dollar salary any longer, he is not going to have to help recoup the loss for the money given to his company.  If I had a fat bank account to live off of and the opportunity to reduce my taxes without changing my lifestyle, I think I'd take advantage of it, too.

Maybe he is correct.

At least he (Ford CEO) said that (no matter how much I dislike Fix Or Repair Daily or Found On Road Dead).  The other two (GM, Chrysler CEOs)?

Of course this says nothing about their "Stock Options" in "Preferred Stocks" (not "Common" Stocks) look up the difference; Golden Parachutes, Benefits, etc..

you have to get the money to the people , we spent not them..........

I agree, the fed was the worst mistake this country ever made.  It essentially made our money worthless since it was no longer backed by the gold-standard.  Now the Government controls the interest rate and, by-proxy, inflation.  At this rate Bottle caps are going to be worth more, at least they are made out of a salvageable material!  I personally prefer the barter system myself :)  

Financial institutions are governed by insurance companies ... insurance companies that require proof of solvency before allowing the bank to lend out cash.  In case you didn't detect it in that article, solvency is the very issue at hand.

I agree with keeping Congress out of it.  Most of those who are being asked to decide an issue of this magnitude have very little background in finance, other than their own.  To play forward a business plan with a carrot dangling a $1 payroll for the CEO is not designed to convince Congress of the viability of the bailout; it's designed to convince US.  $1?  Yeah, right.  Pull the other leg because it plays Jingle Bells.  We all know these CEOs do not have to pay a cent for food, housing, clothing, etc.  Those perks are buried in so much calculator tape they are indiscernable from New Year's Eve confetti.

I am firmly convinced, however, that we need to allow these three giants to file for the reorganization, after which the government will present a conditional bailout.  This bailout will be contingent upon:

• No supervisor, manager, board member, senior staff, consultant, pick your title, but NOBODY is entitled to earn more than 120% of the salary AND perk package of his subordinates.
• No staff member AT ALL is entitled to earn more than $1 million, benefits, perks, meals, nada.
• Union workers will agree to take cuts to their salaries and benefits to equal the going rate of the same non-union job.  These cuts will be subsidized with proportionate profit sharing; that is, treat the concession like shares of stock, for which dividends on income is disbursed ratably.  This concession would be phased out after three years.  If a worker earns $40 an hour for work paid elsewhere at $20 an hour, he would be cut to the $20 an hour but would receive profit sharing reservations for $10 of that hour.  Next year, he would receive $6.66, third year, $3.33, fourth year ... zip.  If all these cuts make the company profitable, it would be ratably allocated back to those who made concessions.  Anybody refusing to take these cuts is considered voluntarily terminated.  No unemployment.
• All vehicles must be completed on domestic soil from domestic products.  Any person willing to purchase these American vehicles will receive a credit on their income taxes ... one amount for a new purchase; a lesser amount for a used purchase.  If we cannot tax imports fairly, then offer credits for domestic products.
• CEOs will be given four years to turn the companies around.  If unsuccessful, they will be replaced.
• 75% of vehicles must be produced using an alternative energy source, readily available on domestic soil.
• All bailout monies must be paid back prior to any bonuses being paid out.
• Because these companies would be publicly funded, full disclosure must be provided annually to an annually differing CPA firm.

I make $12 an hour with no benefits because I need the work.  I will do what it takes to survive in this world.  If more people, more companies, acted like survivalists instead of elitists, we wouldn't be in this predicament, would we?

Financial institutions are governed by insurance companies ... insurance companies that require proof of solvency before allowing the bank to lend out cash.  In case you didn't detect it in that article, solvency is the very issue at hand.

I agree with keeping Congress out of it.  Most of those who are being asked to decide an issue of this magnitude have very little background in finance, other than their own.  To play forward a business plan with a carrot dangling a $1 payroll for the CEO is not designed to convince Congress of the viability of the bailout; it's designed to convince US.  $1?  Yeah, right.  Pull the other leg because it plays Jingle Bells.  We all know these CEOs do not have to pay a cent for food, housing, clothing, etc.  Those perks are buried in so much calculator tape they are indiscernable from New Year's Eve confetti.

I am firmly convinced, however, that we need to allow these three giants to file for the reorganization, after which the government will present a conditional bailout.  This bailout will be contingent upon:

• No supervisor, manager, board member, senior staff, consultant, pick your title, but NOBODY is entitled to earn more than 120% of the salary AND perk package of his subordinates.
• No staff member AT ALL is entitled to earn more than $1 million, benefits, perks, meals, nada.
• Union workers will agree to take cuts to their salaries and benefits to equal the going rate of the same non-union job.  These cuts will be subsidized with proportionate profit sharing; that is, treat the concession like shares of stock, for which dividends on income is disbursed ratably.  This concession would be phased out after three years.  If a worker earns $40 an hour for work paid elsewhere at $20 an hour, he would be cut to the $20 an hour but would receive profit sharing reservations for $10 of that hour.  Next year, he would receive $6.66, third year, $3.33, fourth year ... zip.  If all these cuts make the company profitable, it would be ratably allocated back to those who made concessions.  Anybody refusing to take these cuts is considered voluntarily terminated.  No unemployment.
• All vehicles must be completed on domestic soil from domestic products.  Any person willing to purchase these American vehicles will receive a credit on their income taxes ... one amount for a new purchase; a lesser amount for a used purchase.  If we cannot tax imports fairly, then offer credits for domestic products.
• CEOs will be given four years to turn the companies around.  If unsuccessful, they will be replaced.
• 75% of vehicles must be produced using an alternative energy source, readily available on domestic soil.
• All bailout monies must be paid back prior to any bonuses being paid out.
• Because these companies would be publicly funded, full disclosure must be provided annually to an annually differing CPA firm.

I make $12 an hour with no benefits because I need the work.  I will do what it takes to survive in this world.  If more people, more companies, acted like survivalists instead of elitists, we wouldn't be in this predicament, would we?

Uncommon Sensibility - your ideas are realistic, great.

However, if you look at the Obese 3 involvement in the various Laws and Politics, they sabotaged themselves and cannot backtrack on the Laws that they pushed using Lobbists to "persude" (bribe) the Politicians to pass from Bills to Laws, Acts, Regulations, Restrictions, Taxes.

Common sense is not so common.

I was also told (in writing) by Congress that prior to the Bailout of the Financial Institutions that similar things were going to be required.  LOL.

Good try but they are doomed by pension liability--GM's is more than 1000% of the company's worth. If your plan was enacted perfectly I still cannot see the numbers adding up to service the pension liability--far from it. Pensions are the intractable problem.

While styles may vary, the core drivetrains should be jointly developed and used by all 3.

Imagine the savings to everyone involved when there is one set of standards to follow and design around.....

Who do you think Lobbied repeatedly to not comply with the previous Bailout requirement to go to Metric Standards.

So all of us end up with junk?  If you ever got to see what GM, Ford build overseas compared to what they build in the US.  You would call them Traitors, dumping crap in the US, while making latest greatest "state of the art" technology overseas.

Because of their involvement with the Politicians to force a change to the DOT Safety Standards to prevent the Foreign Car Invasion of the 1970s, now they cannot import their own cars that conform to the stricter International TUV Safety Standards (safer based on survivability by category).

Also, what you are talking about is that more jobs will be "outsourced" to Mexico and Canada where the majority of their vehicles are "preassembled" (built).  Read the "Made in" labels on the vehicles (cars and trucks).

Note: This is also why the other countries impose a strict tax on the "American" cars that cannot adhere to the Laws pertaining to International TUV Safety Standards and fuel economy (gas hog tax).

I know first hand after taking my American Ford to Europe.  And compared to the European model Ford, mine was a piece of crap.  My American car parts, underengineered, planned obsolence (failure); European car parts overengineered "Built to Last".  So yes, I changed out the parts that I could from American Ford to European Ford.

With that said, seen any GM Opel "Mantas", Ford "Capris", Ford Cosworth Escorts, Ford AGs (65 mpg), etc. in the US.