Ky. atheists want God out of homeland security

Forcing people to say some "magic words" about how we need God's help to stay safe hardly addresses "the lack of God in our society."  In fact, that kind of shove-it-down-others-throats "religion" just makes things worse.

The state must not MANDATE that people acknowledge a Deity.  That is a violation of civil rights -- freedom of religion includes the freedom to not have one, and freedom of expression includes the freedom to NOT participate in religious speech.

If you want to live somewhere where "the general public" gets to pick the state religion, you could always move to Iraq.

akshoe59, the constitution was written specifically to protect the rights of the minority from the will of the majority, sorry...and while I do find this to be a bit of a trivial issue, it's just another example of religious right-wingers attempting to turn this country into a theocracy.

I don't believe that belief in God can be mandated. Belief in God is a personal thing and even God does not require that you believe. God clearly gives each and every one of us the choice to believe or not. We are simply admonished to understand the consequences of our choices.

Akshoe -

The problems with Society today are not due to the absence of god, but the presence of god.  We would not have had a 9/11, a war in Iraq, a terrorist attack in India, etc. etc. without religion. The very existence of Mankind depends on ridding the world of mythological belief in imaginary deities to argue over. End religion before it's too late and we might just save ourselves from extinction.

Gosh, this is the tiredest old internet screed of them all.  We wouldn't have universities without religion either -- or hospitals, or the fine arts, or any of the innumerable other wonderful and lovely things which have developed out of humankind's devotion to the belief in something or someone beyond themselves.

Like everything else in the realm of human life, religion gets used and abused.  That doesn't make it evil. 

Believe it or not, "the very existence of Mankind" does not depend on everyone adopting your viewpoint.  Shattering, I know.

akshoe, I could not agree more with what you posted!! We acquiesce to the smallest of minorities way too much in this country. I see absolutely no problem with what Homeland Security is doing, and as a matter of fact, I applaud it. Yes, put the issue to a vote and see what the MAJORITY has to say for a change. I am by no means a bible thumper, religious zealot or anything like that, but asking for a little help from above never hurts. If as an athiest, you don't agree, simply ignore the plaque and go about your business. Why should the majority always bow to  what is certainly a very small minority?

As a child, after attending Catholic elementary school, I went to public High School. We always saluted the flag, said the Pledge of Allegiance, and then listened to a bible verse or two, and said the Our Father. The ending of the prayer was slightly different than what the Catholics prayed, so I simply said the end as I was taught, instead of the different way. NO BIG DEAL!!!  This issue with Homeland Security is also NO BIG DEAL!!!

Smallest minority? There are 38 MILLION ATHEISTS in the US alone, and the number is growing all the time. Separate_Church_and_State. Funny how Right-Wingers point to the few Christians in the founding fathers, but leave out Franklin, Jefferson, and a horde of others who were either deists or as close to Atheist as you could get in their day.

Lack of religion the root of evil in our day? Ridiculous! It's interesting how many of the craziest, most-repressed, coniving, self-righteours, hypocritical people I've met (and I'm VERY well travelled) went to Catholic school...hardly a glowing representation of how complete immersion in religion leads to a better, mroe truthful, charitable, wholsome life...in fact, they have been some of the most miserable, tortured people...always guilty, always wriging their hands, and then doing all kinds of things that were in direct violation of their indoctrinated beliefs...and perversely getting off on it.

God does not believe in atheist, does that mean you don't exist?

"When will the Powers that be realize or at least acknowledge that a lot of our Societal problems are due to the lack of God in our Society?"

There is no lack of God in our society. If there was, there would be no need for a separation of church and state, and people wouldn't need to raise alarms when that line is crossed. God is very much alive in homes, churches, temples, religious schools and private charitable organizations. Children instilled with values relative to their faiths will then bring these values INTO society. Not "Christian" values or "Hindu" values or "Muslim" values or "Buddhist" per se, but the essence of religious teachings which share commonality, and which all may benefit from in a pluralistic society. If problems in our society are due to a lack of God in our society, then fingers should be pointed, not at "society" or at government agencies, but at individuals. God does not cease to be in our midst because the Ten Commandments are not allowed to be displayed at a court house, or because a creche isn't allowed to be displayed on public property, or because students in a public school aren't allowed to pray there. God dwells in the individual heart, and this presence flows outward from there. The act of "keeping God out" of certain public spheres does not make God invisible. It provides a neutral ground - given our religious and spiritual diversity - on which we can meet, sharing those talents, abilities and values which are shaped in part by the God whom we honor and esteem.

"We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal, endowed by their CREATOR...

You morons want to get rid of everything that shows the world what terible people you are and you will not rest until you have the Bill of Rights removed from the people.

"Freedom is the greatest gift God has given onto man" The Holly Bible

"We have our freedom because of our faith; we do not have our faith because of our freedom." George W. Bush

It amazes me that their exist a group of individuals who want to use their God given gift of freedom to deny themselves and everyone else access to that which gave them their freedom in the first place - self absorbed idiots.

"I always thought athiests were nothing more then a bunch of selfish people." my Grandfather

God does not cease to be in our midst because the Ten Commandments are not allowed to be displayed at a court house, or because a creche isn't allowed to be displayed on public property, or because students in a public school aren't allowed to pray there. God dwells in the individual heart, and this presence flows outward from there. The act of "keeping God out" of certain public spheres does not make God invisible.

Amen.

Living in the south, I often hear discussions over the school prayer issue, and how people blame that on how our society is now. One of these discussions I asked my friend (a devout Christian) how she would feel if the teacher leading the prayer was Jewish. I asked, "would you like her leading the prayers and telling your children that Jesus is not the son of God?" She became enraged and said "NO!" So I said, "there ya go. Leave the teaching of relgion in the home and the Church where it belongs"

I agree with the Aethiests on this one. 

Well said, Hans.

Hey, Writing Athena...

We would have universities and hospitals and places of higher learning and art and they would be much more advanced than today had it not been for the religious nuts stifling and suppressing science, art and free thinking for centuries just to "maintain control" over the masses in the name of the all mighty Pope.

Hell the Pope once led armies against non-believers, ex-communicated free thinkers that were on the right track but their thinking was counter to the church's, and most great minds like Copernicus, Galileo, and Newton were afraid to speak in fear of the church.  Only after others proved their points did the truth become known to the people.

How wonderful of the church to foster such learning...

The assembly began with the pledge of allegiance. Then the principal, a Jew, read a passage from the old testament. Then we all sang a hymn. Then to business.

Where? Public School in Brooklyn, NY. When? 50 years ago. Anyone hurt? No!! Anyone helped? Yeah!

Were the Buddhist and Muslims in that school given their chance...or would they have been allowed to???...I think probably not...

Hugh, I guess you have to have gone to Oxford or Cambridge or the Sorbonne to actually have learned where those places -- and the whole system of higher learning in the West -- came from. 

No one is shoving anything down anyones throats. It's a plaque with with a statement on it that doesn't require anyone to believe in it or even read it. People do have a choice, if you don't like it then don't read it and just ignore the sign.

Hipocrisy runs rampant among both atheists and the religious who are constantly quibbling over trivial sh#t. If people would just shut up and stop pushing their own agendas and criticizing each other there would be less divisiveness among us. Respect each other for what our beliefs and sit on your tongues.

We criticize Congressional members for political childlike bickering over legislation but yet we cannot seem to find our own common ground and tolerance when it comes to religion.

Personally, my rights are not infringed upon nor am I outraged by the statement on a plaque in front of a building. It doesn't interfere with my every day living nor does it change the way I have been doing what I usually do. 

Over the course of the Human experience I would guess that more people died at the hands on non-religious events than at the hands of religious events.  Hitler killed a lot of people not our of religion but out of some hell bent idea of creating a superior race.  WWI was not started as a religious war. Vietnam not a religious war.  Korea not a religious war.  Japanese did not attack us as a religious war. 

True there have been a lot of people that have died at the hands of greedy, power hungry alleged religious leaders who garnered support for their own personal goals by creating a religious basis for their actions.  However, we have had greedy power hungry leaders do this without religion as well.

There has been a lot more good that has come out of religion.  Some others on this list have identified those positive things.

As for the bickering of atheist and those of faith - the atheist want to force their belief on the rest of us.  I can't pray in  a public place because an atheist says that offends them.  If the atheist does not want to pray then don't.  But if I want to then I should be able to.  Maybe it offends me that the atheist will not pray so maybe they should be forced to pray.  But, those that favor freedom of choice somehow say it is OK for the atheist to silence me.  So why does the atheist get more of a right to tell me how to act?  Does the Constitution give the minority the right to tell the majority what to do?

Living in the south, I often hear discussions over the school prayer issue, and how people blame that on how our society is now. One of these discussions I asked my friend (a devout Christian) how she would feel if the teacher leading the prayer was Jewish. I asked, "would you like her leading the prayers and telling your children that Jesus is not the son of God?" She became enraged and said "NO!" So I said, "there ya go. Leave the teaching of relgion in the home and the Church where it belongs"

I agree with the Aethiests on this one. 

I do too.  Having religion in public schools is going to open a Pandora's box.  Whose religion are we to promote?  If ya let in one, ya gotta let 'em all in.  This includes the Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Jehovahs Witnesses, and *gasp* even satan worshippers!  Yes folks - you may not like it, but that will be the way it is.

"Hipocrisy runs rampant among both atheists and the religious who are constantly quibbling over trivial sh#t."

The status quo is pretty strong in America, so both opposing view points bang their fists against a wall, hoping that the smallest concessions will lead to a slippery slope of transition.

So yeah, even small issues like these matter a lot since our judicial system operates on precedence and much of what happens daily is based more on de facto law than a rigorous interpretation of the constitution and federal laws. 

Athena

Religion in and of itself isn't evil but the people who claim a particular religion seem to have a knack for doing evil things to those percieved not to share the same beliefs.

I find it ironic that people are willing to injure and kill those who don't share their beliefs in ddirect contradiction of the very same beliefs the profess to follow. It seems to me that radical religious types are incapable of introspection and self examination as it applies to their version of God.  

Personally I wonder how many Americans would kill in God's name for the sake of conformity with their beliefs here at home if they thought they could get away with it.

I have seen some here proclaim that the constitution is for the protection of the majority WRONG. The majority can do for it's self it is the minority that is always enslaved or mistreated by the majority. If you have any doubts about this statement go ask a black or gay person. By the way I am old enough to remember comments about many races and creeds and none were complementary.

Bilbo, I don't see where anyone is succeeding at turning this country into a theocracy.  Explain how please.  There have been more individual right victories in this country in the last 30 years than not.  How much further must we go into giving away rights before we give too much?  Freedom of expression is a two way street remember that.  All of you remember that.  I have seen more vindication in the forcing of liberal beliefs in this country than that of conservative and I am a moderate independent who truly stands in the middle.  I also have kids.  I have a hard time swallowing what my kids are allowed and forced to talk about at their public school which I find much more disturbing than having the word "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.  I'm tired of the schools teaching tolerance for ideas I do not believe in and try to guide my children from.  I have never been taught religion in a public school outside of saying the word "God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.  But on a daily basis I have to hear my 12 year old son come home to tell me about sex, condoms, homosexuality, and other topics that do not belong in school.  And I don't mean the mention of these words, they are being taught about these subjects by teachers from a social standpoint and not a biological standpoint.  The biological standpoint I have no problem with.  He has 12 year old friends that are male and female that consider themselves gay when they haven't even reached true sexual maturity yet.  Now days in his school if a boy is a bit feminine or a girl is a bit masculine they are called gay by their peers because these children have no real concept yet of what it really means.  What is that doing to children?  And no, I am not gay bashing.  I don't think that a public middle school is the place to indoctrinate ideas into children.  That is my job as parent and my childs choice at adulthood.  Let me make this crystal clear.  I have no problems with the words being used.

21st John, I am an educator and I'm truly sorry that your son goes to a school where things are taught that you do not like....that said, none of the kids at my school are taught on any of these subjects...we live in the Bible Belt and are forbidden to discuss such things with them....sad too, because our pregnancy rate is WAY above the state and national average...you see our kids are ignorant about themselves and their bodies...all of this because the religous beliefs of our school board....so don't tell me we aren't heading toward a theocracy....I'm living in one on the local level....and so if we're not supposed to stimulate a child's ideas and mind then what am I teaching children for?

Bilbo: Let me get this straight--in order to stimulate children's minds, and lower the pregnancy rate in the South, you have to teach kids to use condoms; have sex with people of their own sex; that God is a fairy tale; that their parents don't know anything, only the almighty State does; that nothing they do wrong is their fault, it's the fault of everyone around them; that the State will take care of them from cradle to grave; that stealing from the rich in the form of higher taxes to care for the poor is right (never mind that churches and charities and communities did a MUCH better job until Lyndon Johnson came along with his "Great Society")? If that's so, I'm really glad my children go to Catholic school, and are smart enough to understand that morality means you control your urges, not your urges control you.

Perhaps if you started teaching children that it is better to control themselves than to give into their urges, you would not need to discuss how condoms are great birth control and approving of homosexuality means that you are compassionate and intellectually superior.

Perhaps if you started stimulating their minds with the ideas that honor and integrity are harder paths, but ultimately more satisfying, you won't have to be teaching children that even if you are not mentally mature enough for sex, it's okay.

Perhaps if you take the time to teach them that there is a greater world out there and that if they rise above the base animal nature of man, they can create something truly powerful instead of arguing the merits of same sex vs. opposite sex.

You see, Bilbo? Even without religion, there is a whole world of better things to stimulate a child's mind with, things that can make the world a better place. Rather than argue with your school board about religion, why don't you stimulate their minds with the greater things in life, instead of the lesser?

Well you parents aren't doing your job....you teach them about this and we wouldn't have to(if we could)

You must be from Kentucky.  The reason I say so is because I have friends in Louisville and that is the expression they use to describe the area.  Well I am from Louisiana and we have a majority christian population.  With that said, we do not teach religion at our public schools.  The kids cannot even say the Pledge of Allegiance anymore.  About teaching.  I'm all about education as I mentioned before from a biological or scientific standpoint.  The point is that I am a moderate and feel that the teachings here have swung too far left.  I don't know how to explain it but you would have to see it to believe it.  Of course, Louisiana's education system is a huge failure from an educational standpoint on a national level.  There are many school systems in other states that may be more successful at educating children but so many are leaning towards this indoctrination of political correctness and sensitivity training.  That is not the schools responsibility.  The point of the article was the fact that Atheists are upset because of biblical phrases in public view and that God was used as a protectorate of sorts in their training literature.  The word "God" is on our money and believers and non-believers alike spend it the same way.  This is a "when in Rome" situation.  It is a predominantly Christian country.  Christians are a strong majority in Kentucky and if they "believe" that God may help protect them what is the problem?  It just isn't even offensive enough to merit the amount of time any of us have spent spitting out this dribble.  If God applies to you great.  If not, that is your business.  I don't see the point in battering a local majority because they "did" use God. 

Writing Athena:  "the whole system of higher learning in the West" evolved from many things, most importantly the Academy of Plato (thus the term "academia") - definitely not religious.

Of course, churches have started a great many very fine universities - but a lot would still have been created in the absence of religion as well.

wq-610538:  Where do you get the idea that "the atheist want to force their belief on the rest of us"?   I haven't seen any atheist tell you what you or any other individual should believe or not believe.  Have you really been told not to pray in a public place?  Really?  I don't think so.

You also say "Does the Constitution give the minority the right to tell the majority what to do?"  Of course not - and the minority is certainly not telling the majority what to do.  What the Constitution most definitely DOES do is say what the government is not allowed to do, including endorsing one particular religion.  That, unfortunately, is what the government in Kentucky is trying to do - if any individual (including government officials, speaking for themselves) want to say they have certain beliefs, that's fine.  But where this clearly goes over the line is by an official pronouncement of government endorsing a religion - that is clearly unconstitutional, and it's just plain wrong.

My God Athena, I was OK with you up to your last sentence; First off,  the poster did not mean to imply we needed a state accepted religion voted on by the majority, only that KY voters could choose to leave the language in or not. The same  about the "In God We Trust." The language does not validate a state controlled religion. I understand it is offensive to you, but no one is going to make you or any American bow their head and pray. People mumble words and lie through their teeth every day. You all have your knickers in a knot.

How many different sects of Christianity are there? My point; There is and will always be  different doctrines between them. Why are you so paranoid about religion? At the end of the day Religion is who you really are not a nomenclature.

They can't prove there is a God that's why it's faith based, and atheists can't prove there isn't. ... Check Mate.

Back to your last sentence: it's ironic, you sound like the very people you protest. My way or the Hi-way.

{If you want to live somewhere where "the general public" gets to pick the state religion, you could always move to Iraq.}

Jo,

"My God" -- such a funny way to begin a post on this thread. Was that irony, or something less witty?

As to my last sentence, I did not -- as so many people often do on Newsvine -- say something along the lines of, "If you don't like it, leave." That would have been puerile posturing.

Instead, I was suggesting that the oh-so-brilliant apologist for "majority rule" religion recognize that what he/she thinks would work wonderfully well in theory works abysmally in fact. There are indeed places where questions of conscience are a matter of majority rule, where the government has in fact decided *by vote* to give preference and privilege and protection to certain religions, and not to others. America -- so far -- is not one of those places. Nor should it be.

As to my being "paranoid" about religion...

The thoughts I have expressed in this thread may or may not be adequately sophisticated for the refined tastes of discerning Newsvine readers like yourself, but they are certainly not the lazy, lackluster, lobotomized rantings of the straw-man debaters and talking-point regurgitators who have never had the curiosity, the courage, or the discipline to critically examine their own preferences, prejudices, and presumptions -- such as the presumption that because I have employed strong polemical rhetoric to make a case against the civil or "democratic" imposition of religious norms, I must somehow be "paranoid" about religion.

In fact, I'm an ordained Baptist minister -- yes, Baptist churches do occasionally ordain women -- with a pretty thorough grounding, thanks to years in seminary and more years outside of seminary, in Biblical languages, historical theology, comparative religions, and all those other fascinating topics that put most people to sleep. That's on top of a very fine liberal education -- refreshingly secular -- from one of the most prestigious universities in the world. So please excuse the fact that my constantly refined opinions about religion and public life are not the sort of pat provincial pronouncements you can easily pigeon-hole.

To put it in terms you might grasp...It is quite possible for a person of deep faith, a (gasp!) Christian, who is not personally offended by the phrase or the sentiment behind "In God We Trust," to consider that phrase an unneccessary and perhaps even improper slogan to put on our national currency -- especially when others will argue that, by using a currency so marked, atheists have forfeited their right to protest what they consider to be the improper interference of the state in matters of conscience.

You might want to expand your horizons a little bit and realize that a committed Christian can be a committed defender of the principle of separation of church and state. This does not make us paranoid. It makes us good citizens, and good neighbors. Just a thought.

No, our country was built on principles of freedom and democracy, which includes freedom from Governmental interference and control of our private lives -- religion is a matter of conscience, and the Government has no business using its considerable resources and power to try to "force the conscience" of its employees or the citizens they serve.

Our country wasn't built on "In God we Trust." That was added on later. Even our coins and monetary bills doesn't have it until the late 1860s.

The founding fathers did stress about the importance of separation of Church and State. Look at what is happening in nations where religion has the final say. It is no better than dictatorship because a few of the religious heads have absolute power.

And look at the hadnling of the so call priests who have been "manhandling" boys for years. If I am correct, I think that is a sin to do so and a sin to lie about it (for which a majority of the religious head ignored the issue for a long time).

How about the inclusion of religion during World War 2? Look it up, Hitler has priests and the church blessing his troops also. And further back in history during the Crusades, both sides have religion on their backs.

Its the same as "don't do business with friends and/or families. One side will get burnt."

Our country was built on the freedom of the human spirit. Our forefathers were believers but they realized that allowing the state to determine the manner of their belief was not only what the original pilgrims fled from, it is also tantamount to the path to tyranny.

Most of our founding fathers were Deist, and Deism is not an organized religious movement. piglizard420.  That's your difference.

Which God? The God who demands that women stay at home and have babies? The God who demands that cows not be eaten? The God who champions peace and loving kindness? The God who avenges wrongs and sides with us in wars? The God who is the "only" God? The God who has many manifestations as numerous Gods? The God who would have us delight in sensuality and our humanness? The God who would have us wallow in guilt and in longing for death and freedom from earthly existence? The minute you allow a vague concept of "God" into blatantly public areas in an OFFICIAL sense, you open the door for one religious group or another to push a bit more. My religious values and your, religious or secular, may have common points, but these are not to be promoted by government as religious ones. Our government represents people from all religious backgrounds, or none at all.

Human beings are the most destructive, imperfect and violent creatures on this planet. Animals have far  more innocence because they don't have the ability to conceive wickness, deceit and intentionally devised greed.

We create the racisim, prejudices, discrimination, self rightousness and unnecessary strife among ourselves continuously trying to find ways to find fault with each other in one way or another.

Our very own intelligence will be the eventual cause of our demise simply because we are morally and ethically bankrupt and too weak to find the spiritual strength to better ourselves. Guidance is cetainly there but how many are strong enough to truly grasp and hold on to it.

piglizard

True in the sense that the Pilgrims/Puritans fled from what they saw as the imperfection of their religious brand in England. Once here they became just as intolerant as those they sailed away from.

Once again their god could beat up somebody elses' god.

Sorry JW but "in god we trust "was added under Ike

I agree.

To George...............How wrong you are.  It is carved on government building, on our coins and paper money and has been for a very long time.  "Under God" was added to the Pledge of Allegiance, but not anything else.

Dee Knapp - You obviously have NO idea where the phrase "in god we trust" came from, when it was adopted and WHY it was accepted by leaders who should have known better. It WAS unconstitutional in the 1950s when it was created, it IS unconstitutional to have it as a national motto or on our money and it staggers me to know that so many people know so little about what they are saying.

"In God We Tust" became our motto in 1956 at which time it was mandated that it be used on our currency. It was used prior to that date but was not mandated until 6/30/56. By 1964 it was to printed on paper currency and the old bills were to be taken out of circulation.

The words "One nation under God," added to the Pledge of Alligence became effective in 1954.

As a heretic I'm OK with it. It will take an act of Congress to change it. Right now our country faces a greater challenge in coming up with the money to save our economy not worrying about what's imprinted on it.

If 14% of you feel that stongly about this issue use only the new presidential dollar coins that are known as "Godless Dollars," as there is no imprint of "In God We Trust" on them.

I have a real hard time with being told I can't believe because a small group says so..God is being removed from everything, kids can't pray at school openly, pledge not being said , prayer at games and events takin away.. I am offended that I am being told I can't do these things if I choose..I went to school with Athiest, years and years ago I might add..they didn't care what i believed and weren't made to say prayer, or pledge or even stay in room for parties and never did they complain..I agree everyone has right to believe what they want but noone has the right to take away my right to believe ethier..All the changes in morals and values have really torn this country apart..and Jo is right so many other real issues, stop clogging up courts with dumb stuff!

Kevin

Very right. I wouldn't trust the govt to tie my shoes correctly. In the matter of religion govt doesn't need to screw it up; organized, theistic religions of today are doing a fine job of it themselves.

A case in point might be the irrational denial of the achievements of science in understanding the workings and continuing evolution of God's creation as understood with the intelligence we have been blessed with.

Since the people in Kentucky have called upon God to aid in protecting them may we assume He will get part of the blame if there is a terrorist attack there?

This is such a simple thing that people keep trying to make complex by twisting the fundamental facts.  The Constitution keeps government out of religion, not religion out of government.  That is the basic truth and fact that all decisions on this issue should be based.  There is no "separation of church and state" in the Constitution.  That statement was in a letter written by Jefferson in answer to a specific question.  That letter is NOT a part of the Constitution.  In fact, the Bible was used as a source and a 'reader' in most schools until near the middle of the 20th century.  Madeline Murray 'won' a suit to stop prayer to start each day in school because she was an atheist.  Her son was told he could come to school late each day to miss the prayer if he wanted, but that wasn't enough, she had to shove her position onto every other person, not only in the neighborhood but in the US.  It is a simple fact that the atheists can shove their minority positions onto the majority no matter what.  That isn't right.  If we are to apply that concept 'equally' then McCain should be the new president because the majority wanted Obama.

Correction Phil, he said "God or any other mythological creature."  Meaning he looks at god as a mythollogical creature, right up there with unicorns and leprechauns.

Religious people are pretty good at taking pieces of text and arranging them in a manner that suits their message.

They've had over two thousand years to master it

TraceyG

How do you suppose the bible was written?

Don't forget omitting parts that don't fit messages as well. 

How about this? EVERYBODY is good at taking peices of text and arranging them in a manner to suit thier message. It's called being human.

Exactly the point here people, everyone interupts things differently as well as we all believe certian morals and values..why should we take those away to suit one group???

That is GREAT!!

First of all, I am from Kentucky.  Not all of Kentucky is "backwoods".  Also I am a Christian.  While I am not sure what I think about God being writen on the wall in some office in Frankfort, I do use my religion to feel safe.  I know God does not protect me from fires, floods, acts of violence, car wrecks, plane wrecks, train wrecks or any other kind of dangers.  I do know that God will protect me from fearing what happens afterwards.  I may die and go to heaven, or I may live and learn from what happens to me.  Please note that while you are putting down all of Kentucky, you are also putting down Abraham Lincoln, who was born here.  Again don't put all of Kentucky in one word just as you wouldn't put all of United States in one word.  I can't help but wonder if they wouldn't have put "acts of God" but "acts of Mother Nature", if there would still be anything being said.  Do you question "Mother Nature" or is it just nature?

JVC

Is your quote from the movie Practical Magic?

JVC

Is your quote from the movie Practical Magic?

William Shakespeare - Macbeth

Ah Hah!!  Thanks

"the pledge of allegations" -- that's a very felicitous freudian slip if I ever saw one.

The "under God" part of the pledge (which as a whole is only about 100 years old) was added in the 1950s as a poke in the eye to communism. 

Your overall thought seems to be that the vast majority of us all think the same way, so those who think differently should just keep their mouths shut and protest to themselves.  With that kind of "thinking," you'd better hope that the majority never changes its mind.

Or we could just protect everyone's right to his or her own beliefs, and keep the government neutral in the matter.  THAT is the American way.

Please don't try to use facts to back up your argument. They will just be tossed out with all other legitimate logical and rational thought.

Its funny how when religious people try to debunk evolution they say its just a theory and is fallible because humans are fallible and blah blah blah... but then they blindly follow a fairy tale because they are convinced beyond all reasonable doubt that it's real. Its insane.

DeadhandTaxes-- interesting to me is that the creationist/ ID camp tries to use scientific arguments in their campaign against evolution. Shouldn't faith be enough, in that respect?

Anniek, you'd be up in arms if the plaque was praising Buddha or Allah. I agree with you that this is a waste of time and money, but the thing is it shouldn't have been put there in the first place.

when thing like this plaque are allowed to go unchallenged the path to slavery is close at hand

They have medication for paranoia.

I'm not familiar with that prophecy -- or is it prophecy because you just now typed it?

ROFL...excellent!!

PSALM 9:17 THE WICKED SHALL BE TURNED INTO HELL, AND THE NATIONS THAT FORGET GOD.

Well, as long as people are ranting about how our society is ignoring God, we're not likely to forget him, are we.

My sister and I have read the bible and the exact things that are happening now have been predicted so go your merry way and laugh. Just remember he who laughs last laughs the longest.

Cindy, if you have a problem with the separation of church and state, take a moment to think about some of the societies where there is no such separation. For example, Saudi Arabia. Do we want America to be more like that, or less? How does a society like that treat religious minorities (such as Christians and Jews) and non-believers? The separation of church and state protects everyone. It's a sound principal - let's respect it, and let's question the motives of politicians who play games with it.

The Flaw with an Organized Religion is that Flawed Man Organized it. I truly understand why some people get turned off to the point of Atheism...There is nothing like a Sanctimonious Person who has the ear of a "God" as though "God"  skip over everyone else except that person.

Conversely, Deism can be a belief in deity absent any doctrinal governance or precise definition of the nature of such deity. Deism can be similar to naturalism. Therefore, Deism will often give credit to the formation of life and universe to a higher power that by design allows only natural processes to govern creation.

As in all things Earthly are made up of Matter. Matter never dies it just changes FORM.

Cindy: So if I don't believe in God or in hell what difference does that prophecy make to me?

Sue: The bible can be interpreted in many ways to fit alot of situations, so if you beleive in prophecies in the bible in the way you interpret them then you must beleive in Nostradamus and all the wrong and errorfilled prophecies that people have taken out of that book.

Yeah, big shots now....

their day is coming

nobody lasts forever on this side

get your flame retardant suits ready

there gonna be a winnie roast.....

Just remember he who laughs last laughs the longest.

And he who laughs last is usually the slowest of the bunch.

cindy40444 I thought you were pushing some sort of Christian view but as you are quoiting from the law of Moses I must assume that you a member of a Jewish sect. The old testament is for the Jews and the new Testament of Jesus is for those who follow Jesus. Go read the book of Hebrews.

Winger- you can keep trying, but really, if we don't believe in Hell- it really isn't scary to be threatened with it.  It's like "be good or Santa will leave coal in your stocking" after you already figured out that there is NO Santa. 

Nothing t

Excellent point -- God as our little good luck charm.

MRT- No, they blame homosexuals, gambling, alcohol, sex out of wedlock, and a whole host of other "godless" behaviors. Remember that Katrina happened not because of a dilapidated levy system and a huge hurricane; it was punishment for the debauchery that went on in New Orleans. Magic!

God gave us free choice to live as we chose but to here some tell it, God controls our every move which translates into do as you will because God will tell you how far you can go

God does not control us but will lead us safely if we're humble enough to listen to the Spirit.  Those not willing to be lead will suffer the consequences of their choices.  This life is a test and any test worth anything will not be passed by all.  Those wanting to pretend that they actually control their life, etc. will find that the only 'control' they have is being responsible for their actions.

MRT

That's exactly what theistic religion is all about, the select few. Everybody else in screwed. If that's the case why would any god permit so many billions of his creatures to be born knowing they were damned from birth.

JWWelch,  The answer to your question, which is very logical, is available to those willing to search.  Too many 'christians' have been taught the philosophies of man along with a little scripture to make it seem to carry weight, but are not the teachings in the Bible.  Preachers preach to those who pay them... and those who pay them want to hear what they paid for.

You start by saying that religion has been the cause of great evil, then go on to tell us what "God wants" us to do.

Nice.

Writing: It depends on what he is referring to, since there have been hundreds of gods that humans have worshipped to over time, which just adds to the reasoning as to why its all a crock

Keithsn..exactly

Thou shall have no other "gods" before me...Is that an admission to MORE than ONE GOD?.....and I don't mean the excepted form of Paganism.

lawrence, that is exactly what I used to say and I used that as an excuse to drop out of organized religion.  Just because someone does something 'in the name of god or Christ' doesn't mean he is doing it by the authority of God.  God selects those who actually speak for Him, not the other way around... just as stated in the Bible.

...which is why we shouldn't have "God" on our dollar. 

The ability to use that "legal tender for all debts public or private" should not be tied to someone's willingness to pay lip service to some sort of official Civil religion. 

Besides who was mandating the Conscienceless of the Greedy Wall Street Barons who obviously didn't have a "God" moment when it came to Screwing the America People.

The Almighty Dollar seems to have worked fine for them..Doubt very much if they even payed any attention to "God" on their money.

yet another STUPID, IDIOTIC thing to gripe and moan and argue about!  better stop spending that legal tender then.....lip service to civil religion...for real??

I agree completely Tee Tee.  Seems like in the world today, people see it as their DUTY to be offended by something.

Seems like in the world today, people see it as their DUTY to be offended by something.

Jaydog-that is an excellent way of putting it...I don't really care what people believe..to each his own, you know, but for goodness sakes....quit all the griping and complaining and get a life and find a positive outlet for tension and anger or whatever it is that is fueling all of this bitterness.

But Tee Tee, the atheists' group didn't start the farce in Kentucky, the Kentucky legislature did. THEY made an issue out of this, by injecting religious references into public legislation, where it obviously does not belong.

I don't really care who started it....by the way I hear that daily from my 12 year old and my 8 year old...who started it doesn't matter, what matters are the reactions of how things are dealt with...

like I said earlier, I really don't care who started it, people have a choice in what they believe--God or no God..whatever..  I just think that there has to be something more important out there to gripe about and fight for than this situation... starving children, poverty, AIDS, cancer, etc.

It's easy to say that people shouldn't be wasting their time on these things, but if you were on the opposite side of the argument you wouldn't be in that frame of mind becasue it would be your rights and your beliefs that epople are stepping on.

Right on Tee Tee! We have way too many bored people who need to get a life. I don't like rap and find it very highly offensive in most cases - can we work on banning that too??? That would be so nice.

I just think that there has to be something more important out there to gripe about and fight for than this situation... starving children, poverty, AIDS, cancer, etc.

There are more important things out there to fight for, which is why you're spending time griping about griping here, right?

So if the government put up a placard in your office that said, "All Hail Satan, may He keep us safe," that would be okay because it doesn't interfere with your free will to believe otherwise?

LMAO  As I said it's a SIGN SO WHAT. LMAO YOU ARE TOOO FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Writing A.

I guess free will is a one way street.. (Heaven forbid you use your free will to not get caught up in "MAN'S" created) Religion.

How could Christ have been a Christian when he was Christ...lol

Get a grip you believers and realize you believe in a Jewish Man.

Which is okay for whom ever.....just don't think you have the ability to bring on retribution for those who exercises their free will not to.

When I point out the (ideo)logical inconsistencies in someone else's position, your response is to wish death upon me.

You're a class act.  And I bet you think you're a Christian too.

Do YOU do everything a sign tells you to do? Put it your office. The only thing worthless here is you and your attitude. And I bet you are so weak minded you probably do everything a sign tells you to do. Is that why you  have a problem with it? If you see it you have to do it? Get a GRIP on something.

Who wished death on you?

wewillsee

summit....# 15.2

told Writing Athena to jump off of a Mountain..because of being "worthless"?

very "God" loving wouldn't you think?

wewillsee, how can you tell writing athena that she probably believes in everything she reads, when you clearly believe in in a comic book writin by romans. It's a proven fact that all of the stories in the bible(and stories they are) were stolen from earlier mesopotamian religions, the gardeb of eden, the great flood, etc. I could go all day long with this ,but somehow I don't think you'll listen.

Way to misquote someone Wilberta!! Good job.

It was in response to your idiotic belief that wewillsee would do anything a sign said. I was merely inquiring whether you would do the same?

I am very God loving.

Wilberta Berry you can read the sign as well.

Summit..If I misquoted you forgive me.

I don't believe in ignorance. I believe in Scientifically proven Data.  I believe in exploring the concepts of the infinity of the mind.

I believe the mind has the ability to move man forward, not Superstition. The Grimm Fairy Tales are a nice bedtime story, however I would not premise my life from them.

I believe the Bible is a produce of Bronze Age thinking people. I already ready KNOW that most of the incidents attribute to Miracles in the Bible can be Duplicated today , and has been numerous times over.

I Know Superstition is a retardation of Human Progress...and the Bible is filled with Superstitions.

Wilberta...I believe one day you will find out you were wrong.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I do not disagree. I just do not understand why atheists always get bent out of shape when they see the word God.

JW

What about the Genesis Rabbinica,... in which it says that more than one World was created.   What about Lilith,.. Adams alleged first wife.  What about the fact that without the Jewish Torah you can not have the First Testament of the Christain Bible...and without both you can't have the Quran.

What about the fact that man has an innate thing to worship something greater than man thinks he is.  Be it the Rain God, the Sun God , the Moon God.

Because Primitive Man was looking for answers as to how the Earth Functions..Why can't it be just that SIMPLE and Not Mysterious at all.

Wilberta states:

"I believe the Bible is a produce of Bronze Age thinking people"

What type of produce? banana, apple..etc?

I just do not understand why atheists always get bent out of shape when they see the word God.

Seeing as how God has been an overriding justification for persecution, bigotry, and mass murder throughout religious history, and seeing as how the US is an explcitily secular nation, hmmmm, yeah I don't see why anyone would be bothered by people thinking gov't should proclaim religious ideologies.

Jack.

I never said that gov't should proclaim religious ideologies.

You do not answer why you atheists get bent out of shape. How is mass murder, bigotry, persecution justified in religion. "Thou Shalt not Kill"  You are right buddy, murder is justified with religion. My fault!  I think that you need some serious help.

Maybe you and your atheist friends should get a lawyer and sue everyone who uses the word God. Maybe sue the government for going to war too.

summit #15.4

you knew I meant PRODUCT.  So I misspelled a word and now what about the Atheist

Issue. Now that we have that out of the way.

summit...#15.16... since you are a nit picker, it is "THOU SHALL NOT MURDER".

To be more accurate. It is actually "You shall not murder"

Once again you are wrong wilberta.

Summit -  Pot. Kettle. Black.

summit

What, by the way, is an atheist? Please don't give me the standard reply about it being someone who doesn't believe in God. What do you think an A-Theist is? Can you tell us what a theist is? At the very least you should have a handle on the basis for your beliefs.

I never said that gov't should proclaim religious ideologies.

But you're desperately trying to defend a gov't proclamation of religious ideology. You can't eat your cake and have it, too.

How is mass murder, bigotry, persecution justified in religion.

Go ask the Inquisitors and Crusaders (and even Hitler, who used Catholic rhetoric rally people behind his cause).

"Thou Shalt not Kill"  You are right buddy, murder is justified with religion.

Heh, a great number of Christians, notably the Christian right, have no problem with war, and quite a few Christians support the death penalty.

tyler:  It seems to me your intervention is needed even more than it is given. Hatred is the main theme of newsvine so it seems.  Too many "judges".  Thank you for your much needed assistance.

mark3k

I had to post this for you to read to discover that God was not the Intent of Ben. I pasted it because obviously it was to long to retype...However if you care to REALLY READ IT you will see...That ATHEIST BEN FRANKLIN preferred Science to God.

On this Independence Day, as we pay annual homage to the Declaration of Independence for which Thomas Jefferson gets most of the credit for authoring, let's not forget the signal contribution made by Benjamin Franklin -- entrepreneur, scientist, diplomat, statesman and, apparently, wordsmith.

If not for Franklin, one of the most famous parts of the Declaration would likely read, "We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable."

Franklin, a member of the Continental Congress committee charged with creating the document, had a better idea. He crossed out the words "sacred and undeniable" and substituted "self-evident."

You can see the actual draft declaration, with Franklin's edit, here

Walter Isaacson, in his Franklin biography, explains how the amply padded founding father and Renaissance man arrived at "self-evident."

The idea of "self-evident" truths was one that drew less on John Locke, who was Jefferson's favored philosopher, than on the scientific determinism espoused by Isaac Newton and on the analytic empiricism of Franklin's close friend David Hume. In what became known as "Hume's fork," the great Scottish philosopher, along with Leibniz and others, had developed a theory that distinguished between synthetic truths that describe matters of fact (such as "London is bigger than Philadephia") and analytic truths that are self-evident by virtue of reason and definition ("The angles of a triangle equal 180 degrees"; "All bachelors are unmarried"). By using the word "sacred," Jefferson had asserted, intentionally or not, that the principle in question--the equality of men and their endowment by their creator with inalienable rights--was an assertion of religion. Franklin's edit turned it instead into an assertion of rationality."

This may be one of the few times in history that a committee actually improved on the final product.

wilberta, max; try looking up the "jefferson bible" for a clearer indicator of T Jeffersons belief.

He took four different bibles, and stripped all reference to anything supernatural, divine, etc. out.

This country was not founded ON Jesus Christ, and your illogical jump from "God" to "Jesus" makes me nervous. Jesus and God may be one and the same for you, but not for those of many faiths found in America. Certainly "God" and "Creator" were mentioned by our founders, and it would be one thing if all such references to God in a government setting were limited to the generic. Your statement shows however that this would not be the case. "God" for millions of Americans would = "Jesus", which = Christian. We would have a defacto theocracy, a Christian government over a Christian people, put in place by folks like you who would twist the generic into the specific, believing that it is God's will that all be Christians.

well well well Hans you flamed out

"Jesus and God may be one and the same for you, but not for those of many faiths found in America"

FOUND..... right ..FOUND....... you got all sorts of man made religions now.....

I'll stick to GODS made religion....

not what some man made up in the last 300 years...

Well, let's see Winger...

The Jewish religion predates Christianity.

Islam follows Christianity by only a few hundred years

Shintoism, Hinduism, Buddism and many other Eastern religions predate all others by thousands of years.

Ok now.  Which one did God make up?

Jesus told Peter to build HIS house ..

wait ... why do I even bother.

Talking to you is like a brick wall

You already made  your mind up

Your a waste of my time...

"You can lead a horse to water But why waste your time"

Typical response from someone who has just been told

BJ

God did not make up any of them.  People made religion as a way to worship God. 

I read a book that was titled - God is not Great.  God id Great.  Religion - well maybe not so great all the time.

But God's message to people of all faiths is pretty darn consistant - that is rather impressive - don't you think.  It is when people start to create their own message that things get a little out of hand.

max3k

You can say that until the cows come home and it still won't be correct. While your opinion is just as valuable as anyone else's, it is still only your opinion.

Your self serving Franklin quote notwithstanding, Franklin was a deist, though he found it unsatisfying. H.W. Brands in his 2000 bio of BF---THE FIRST AMERICAN says, in part with respect to religion, "Tempermentally, Franklin was a skeptic rather than a rebel" P94.

He went on to quote BF in his ARTICLES OF BELIEF AND ACTS OF RELIGION (Nov 20, 1728) "I hold: If there is a Power above us (and that there is all in nature cries aloud, through her works,), he must delight in virtue, and that which He delights in must be happy". p95  

Brands further quotes BF "Why should God speak to one insignficant desert tribe, to the exclusion of the vast majority of the human race'? p94

Why indeed, we might ask.

I have often wondered why God would send his messenger to an obscure backwater of the Roman Empire already peopled by those with an ancient history and what they believed to be a unique covenant with God? The vast majority of people on earth at the time probably lived in India and China. Why not send his son to one of those places to have the greatest impact?

Even more importantly, why didn't God send His daughter AND His son? 

Finally, the origin of Christianity is based on its role as a sect for Jews within Judaism, much as Christians might wish to avoid the fact. The Christian hatred for the founders of their own religion is a sight to behold. 

wilaberta, you simply cherry pick the things that support your self. Benjamin Franklin had FAITH! He did not like organized religion. If you are a teacher of history you scare me.      He wrote a plan of 13 virtues and The very last one is Humility...Imitate JESUS and  SOCRATES.. He was not an ATHEIST.

On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed a committee that included Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, and John Adams to design the great seal of the united states. Ben's motto was Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to GOD

Plus if you really want to know what he meant I believe you should read hie AUTOBIOGRAPHY!!!!

Have no idea what you are talking about.  What christ freaks?

So now you think that you can dictate to God what he must do in order for you to believe in him.  Nice.  I am sure God is amused.

Really JMC - you must be a redneck religious fanatic to think such a thing.

"But I'm not going to file a lawsuit because some sign says it's smooth tasting and i don't agree with it."

Would your position change if that sign was hung up in your kid's classroom?

Would your position change if that sign was hung up in your kid's classroom?

Or in a courtroom? Or in your Boss' office? Part of your company's slogan? In a school song? On your money?

"Satan" is just a little word after all. Does me no harm to hear it, hear other people say it, to have to read it, and if it was part of Washington State Law, who am I ( as a citizen of Washington ) to really be bothered by it?

That or maybe we can make this a seasonal thing. "Santa Claus" "Easter Bunny" or "Cupid" in place of "God". I mean. It is just a name. Has no power or meaning.

great point!

It would be a great point if all over the world and in the United States the religious side wasn't trying to force their beliefs on everyone else around them.  i.e) abortion, gay rights

I would hope someone would get upset if the law tried to use santa, the easter bunny, unicorns, virgins, or any other fictional creatures.

keithsn. you keep posting about abortion and gay rights. that is not even relevant to this article.

That is another debate..

Go read a Prop 8 article and post your comments there.

I'm not posting about abortion and gay rights, I am using those issues as an example.  There is a difference, even if you are too slow to get it.

Religion is not forced down anyone's throat.  Abortion and gay rights are both matters of morality.  Since abortion is killing of a human being it is no surprise that religion does not support it.  Since we value the relationship of a man and wife as important and natural - it is no surprise that the unnatural act of a man with a man would not be acceptable in a religious setting.

I guess I do not understand your point.  If you are religious and speak out against these matters then you are forcing your opinion on someone. But if you speak out in favor fo these things you are ???? 

If you want all morals to go away then be careful what you wish for - because they all evolved from religion.  It is part of what makes us civilized.  If I wanted to hit you over the head with a bat and take your car then I should be able to do that as long as it did not violate my morality who are you to force your morality on me and tell me this is wrong.  Is this what you are saying?  I mean you can't just stop at the abortion and gay rights argument with your logic of not dictating someone else's morality.  If you mean that then a logical extension to other moral issues should require the same conclusion.

Religion is a very big part of what separates us from the animals and what allows us to be civilized.  You may not like it but it is true.

Greg

You are incorrect. An A-Theist is one who does not believe in the current theistic version of God. It does not imply that all A-Theists have no conception of God.

My biggest probelm with theistic religion is that it presumes to deny the workings of God as science, and the intellect God has given us, have shown and continue to show us. I don't understand what the irrational fear is all about.

wq

What seperates us from the animals and all other living things is our awareness of self and the fact that we will die, among other things. Theistic religion is a means to mitigate the fear rather than revel in the glory that is evolving creation.  

I think my dog appears to be fairly aware of itself.  Does my dog know that he is going to die at some point?  I do not know.   I have had other dogs that went to secluded spot away from everyone when they passed away.  Did they seclude themselves because they just wanted to be alone OR did they know they were dying.

What I do know is that my dog does what he wants to do with little regard to whether that is good for someone else.  If he is strong enough to be Alpha dog then his wish is everyone elses command.  His social environment is made up of power - the strongest is Alpha and he rules. 

Our society is made up of rules that are not based on power but on morals and compassion for others.  These developed from religion and a belief in God.  Take God out of the picture and I am not sure that we are not a society ruled by physical power only.

Theistic to me is just a way to make God out to what is acceptable to you.  God is what he is.  Whether acceptable to you or not.  We do not make God - it is the other way around.  The biggest problem with God is that it brings rules - right and wrong - morals to the table.  Humans are much more comfortable when we make the rules ourselves. 

I have no irrational fear of science.  I see an irrational fear of scientist.  There is just as much to support the evolution theory as the creation theory.  In fact the evolution theory presumes that humans evolved on earth - maybe we came from somewhere else.  Maybe we did in fact evolve just as Darwin suggested.  Either way - God is not explained away.  When I bake a cake I do not build each piece of the cake - i put in the ingredients and bake it.  Then an hour later out comes a cake that looks nothing like the ingredients that I put in the oven.  My problem with science is when it becomes its own religion.  Religion is at its very heart based on faith.  Science is supposed to be based on fact only not on a guess or an unproved theory.

wq posted this:

"If you want all morals to go away then be careful what you wish for - because they all evolved from religion.  It is part of what makes us civilized. "

i guess in your mind civilized is drowning 'witches', burning people at the stake, converting native americans or kill them, fighting wars, and doing it all in the name of god. 

sorry, but religion has been nothing but a menace to society since its early conception.

wq - maybe it is the other way around...perhaps religion is the result of already accepted moral tenets - a way of selling a moral view and giving it a structure to enforce.

there's nothing wrong with religion. our constitution used religious/moral beliefs to support an argument for freedoms we enjoy today.  however - imposition of intolerant religious views in the past was the very reason the constitution carefully included a freedom for the individual to choose how to celebrate religion - the constitution did not say how we should talk to God or imply in any way that one religion is the only way to go.    It is to be a personal choice not influenced by social conditioning or excessive social pressure. 

PS - the "under God" thing was added to the pledge of allegiance in the 1940's or 1950's (I don't recall the specific date).  This country was certainly as Christian before it was added - the words themselves carry no extra weight.   The mafia went to church on Sundays, but displayed no greater morality during the week. 

Folks ought to drop all this God in the government chatter.   Fundamentalist religious countries, like this one, Iran, Afghanistan and Iraq have one thing in common - this narrow and radical injection of religion into all corners of lfe is what is holding us all back.   We each should pursue our own morality with fervor, and respect the beliefs of others. 

 It is a major mistake to impose one view on others.  It is also a major mistake to justify killing and discrimination in the name of God.  He must be weary of all the bloodshed in His name.

An agnostic doubts the existence of God.  An atheist says "There is no God."

Of course using religion to further ones personal goals of wealth and power is not the proper use of religion.  However, if religion is the problem then there must not have ever been any person killed in the history of the world for some other reason.  It would certainly appear to me that many more have died in the name of something other than religion.  It is true that people use whatever they can in order to get power.

I doubt that morals came first and then a belief in God was made up to support those morals.  What would have been the reason to have morals?  Morals put others needs in front of our own - this is certainly not a natural state of mind.  Our natural state of mind is to worry only about ourselves - survive.  It is a belief in God that calls us to resist this natural state.  Without a belief in God there would be no reason to even have morals.

mike from florida

No I mean the country and state that you live in are civilized - i did not say that they are holy and without any wrongdoing - we have rules and laws that are based on morality which comes from religion and a belief in God.  Without that there would be no need for morals and there would be no rules or laws to protect anyone against anyone.

You point out misguided acts instituted by people who wanted power over others and used religion to get it. 

Bass,

Your right that it came from that letter, but your wrong on the intent.  Madison was clear on the intent, and there are more then just that letter you refer too.  Let's not forget there were really 5 main founding fathers.  Adams a big Christian, Jefferson a man that jumped all over the place including at one time saying Jesus might not be from a virgin birth, Madison one that pushed for Separation of Church and State.  Washington one of the first to put it back into government, someone again a big Christian, and most importantly Ben Franklin a man that found religion most of his life as laughable.  But they all agreed on one thing, that people should be free to have their religion the way they want.  Ben didn't attack the ideas of the church he saw stupid but also didn't want to be attacked on his life the way he lived it. 

We were founded on freedom of the individual not the force ways of the majority.

You folks need to Google the founding fathers because these bits and pieces you use to justify your position are criminal.

Separation of Church and State was the gold standard in this country until the McCarthy-Cold War era. You really must read the works and speeches of American Presidents. You are taking someone else's word for what they said. You must do objective research for yourself if you have any interest in knowing whereof you speak.