GM: bankruptcy not an option for industry

I've just seen GM's bail out plan----I like what I saw. What I didn't like was REOPENING talks with the UAW. Those guys need to ante up and make some serious concessions to save the company. When they get laid off, they get unemployment compensation like everyone else. 30 bucks an hour on an assembly line---that's 62K a year not including bennies. That's mucho bucks for that job. I'm thinking 20 an hour would be about right. They may not be the entire problem, but they are sure part of it. When they get serious, it's a workable deal!!      

I couldn't agree with ya'll more, unions had there good points when first started but now,  it's all about greed.  Tell the people working on the assembly lines they might not be able to buy that second lake house, the new motorcycle (because the one they have now is a year old), or the speed boat to go with that new lake house. 

My best friend is a union truck drive that hauls car from factors to dealers.  It pisses me off when he complains that he might not get he 5% annual raise and only get 3%.  "Oh how will I survive on the same $150,000 income for another year.  A-hole!

Tell the works to suck it up, the car companies grow some balls and tell them hey look instead of $30 an hour to put trunk hinges on, we're going to give you (maybe) $15 and if you don't like there's the door. 

Unions.... I have no respect for any of them and find them to be useless and a joke. 

Give the $25 Billion to electric California Car Companies like Tesla. They actually have a product that works. http://www.teslamotors.com/ 

Yes Paul, they make a luxary car that costs 100,000 dollars but keep in mind (and what you don't know) is that they are scrapping there plans for a four door affordable family car because of a lack of funding in the mere millions. Don't feel like giving them $25 billion, then how about just $1 bil, and you can have an electric car that gets 238 miles per charge NOT 40 miles like the ill thought up GM piece-of-crap.

They might still produce it anyways and the concept drawings are amazing. The Tesla family car is definately light years away from the big 3 pathetic excuse for an electric car (its the same pathetic car they pull out of the closet every election year for the past 40 years -is anyone watching?!!!)

They think bankruptcy is "not an option" because it would erode consumer confidence??  Good grief, a bit late for that worry. 

The big 3 had better file, and rid themselves of their pension/benefit obligations.  Then get bailout money and try to turn those dinosaurs around.  Dump the unions.  Otherwise, they will be on life support for a little while with a cash infusion, and go belly up, and the taxpayer will STILL be on the hook for the pension/benefits, as that obligation reverts to the U.S. Gov't.  (Taxpayers can pay now, or pay even more later.)

Or give at least a dime to http://www.aptera.com/ , yet another electric car company with an affordable 230+ mpg car. For big truck (read: major oil) consider what Pickens is preaching about Natural gas, American companies like Stirling, CWI, etc. All of these companies deserve what the mob has been supressing for years. Honest hard work and success. Has anyone heard of the Tucker in this country?!

Yeah it is not a big deal if these companies go bellyup. t is their fault and they must suffer. How come the common man does not get help from the govt to help when there is no job. Like why does not the govt say if you loose the job and cannot pay the mortgage your mortgage will be stopped for 1 year or till you get a job.

it is outragous to see car makers get our tax money to work. Who cares if they are working or not. Moreover the unions have also made sure that the companies go down so let the union workers also suffer a little

Tell me how it's not viable for them but it's o.k. for the American people to have to file Chapter 13 etc but it's not "VIABLE" for them.  I am SOOO tired of money being BLOWN out the window to these companies.  NONE OF THE MONEY THEY HAVE DISHED OUT TO THESE CORPORATIONS, BANKS, ETC. HAVE HELPED ANYTHING BUT THE LINING OF THEIR POCKETS.

I couldn't agree more with the majority of you.  The unions need restrictions, and the Corps need accountablility.  The Unions are driving the companies into an abyss.  This whole country needs to cut useless spending and learn how to be conservative with their spending.  Maybe, I should say thrifty so, I don't sound like a right-winger.  Were not the unions initially designed to protect from harsh labor tactics?  What is harsh about 30 bucks and hour, entitlement to health insurance, retirement, and paid time off.  These people need to see what the rest of the country is going through.  Start fresh with a new work force, and get a whole new labor force that is un-unionized, good grief, there are a plenty of un-employed who would be greatful to make 1/2 their salary. 

DD50    EXCELLENT POST.     I just wanted to say; I always have bought American.  It is a sad day for the country though.  I'm sorry that these Harvard grad.'s that became the CEO's of these companies....RAN THEM INTO THE GROUND!!!  They all became greedy, instead of watching their competion.  That includes the unions. 

I vote "NO" for a bail out.  They did this to themselves.  Let them rescue themselves!!! 

Still seems that reorganizing after bankruptcy would be fine. This would force new contracts with CEOs and upper management and would also force UAW to negotiate. As it is now, if auto makers get money, no reason for uaw to make any concessions and really no reason for upper management to take pay cut.

As example why both ceos and uaw need to make concessions. If CEO had been making 25 million and works for $1 that saves company $25 mil. A more realistic figure would be reducing salary half or 3/4.

For stat purposes just use 1 million auto workers. If they took only a $1 per hr pay cut, based on 40 hr week that's $1 times 1 million times 40 hrs times 52 weeks equals over $2 billion dollars savings for year.

With salary concessions from upper management AND blue collar workers, a hell of a lot of money can be saved, but they have no incentive to do it with money coming from govt.

Let em burn!!!!!! We don't need thier over priced, energy consuming, UGLY cars. The people will find another job. Most of them have pensions hundreds of thousand dollars deep anyway. Replace them CEO with someone with greater aspects and actually care about how the affect us.

They want the taxpayer to help them they better make concession not think about them. Who do they think they are cry because your company is on its way out then tell us what you will do. Do it or no bail out loans. See how powerful you are when there is no work for you get real. This is not a chose thing it a do it thing.

To the poster at #1.3,

I'm all for developing new technologies, but let the private sector invest in the start-ups.  When the Big 3 collapse, investors will turn to the new, more innovative companies.  Don't have the newbies begin with a handout.  And hopefully, those investing in the new companies will place tighter restrictions on executive salaries, design decisions, and whether or not to allow unions.

I think the unions need to give back a lot of the excess they have enjoyed all these years.   The greed that the workers enjoy is taking the company down.  I saw a story not long ago that gave a cost of $80 per hour for average worker compensation and benefits at the big three.  That is about twice the amount workers at the foreign auto plants in the US are making.   The foreign auto plants are expanding and the big three are going down.   The union workers need to get over the entitlement attitude and step up to the real world.  Its time they gave back for all they years of greed.

I agree...  Union workers make a "living wage" as opposed to the CEO's who make a ludacrous wage.  I am sure the CEO's of the Big 3 could work for $1.00 per year for a couple of years and still have more money than the blue collar workers will see in a life time.  If there are going to be pay cuts... let them start those pay cuts at the top!

I also do not care for this "concession" of "working for $1/yr" scheme!

I say we'll pay your salary but not your BONUS, ABSOLUTELY NOT Vice-Verse!

Do they STILL think that everyone is that naive as to allow them a $20mil bonus after giving up the HUGE $675k salary?!

If Washington PRETENDS that this is being concerned and generous, then those who allow a bailout based upon this WILL be removed from office.

Let's see. I'll take a $1.00 a year salary if the government gives me money. If not, I'll keep taking my millions of dollars in salary and bonuses while I continue to run my business into the ground. Kind of sounds like blackmail to me.

I work in the auto industry. Two things that have not been discussed by any news organization, none, not any industry insider is this......Why on earth should the American tax payer bail out Chrysler? Chrysler is owned by a 27 Billion dollar hedge fund, Cerberus Capital. If they won't put in any more money, why should we? It is a private company. Cerberus several years ago bought Mervyn's, the department store. They stripped the company of it's assets and it is now in bankruptsy (BusinessWeek). Should we pay for all those people who lost jobs, retirement, etc. at Mervyn's? Is Chrysler any different?

Second, I work with both Japanese OEM's and US. The main difference in labor costs which are the major issue is not the hourly rate so much. The Japanese autos pay their people relatively the same as the Big 3. The difference is a worker for the Japanese company will not only drive a forklift, but he/she will also package parts, unpack parts, fill in at other locations as required. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a Big 3 dock and see forklift drivers sitting reading papers, drinking coffee, etc. waiting for trucks to come in. AND, if you as a truck driver are at the wrong dock, which may be 3 feet away, they will tell you to move your truck over to the other dock because they can't move anything except for this one dock.

I been called to pick up parts on the floor because "The Union" wouldn't allow the "Union Brothers" to pick up parts on the floor. It would have taken them 15 minutes to do. We charged for our time to drive over to the plant and pick up parts with just 2 people. Cost them $500. If the Union would have done it, the cost would have been negligable.

how did the unions ruin the auto industry?  i see nowhere that the ceo's made less because of what the uaw workers were paid.  their dues were paid through the years for what they have now.

why let the banks and financial company's have all the billions when they along with our politicans helped cause a lot of this mess.  the deregulation of that group of companies put us where we are today. not the auto industry.

we have lost enough industry as it is.....along with those jobs that went with them.  i do not see our politicans taking any responsibility or any pay cuts yet...why not ? 

Thanks for an informative and detailed response!

I work at Boeing Aerospace as a subcontractor in Everett,and I see the same BS there-union machinists-have the same attitude-can't move around and help another "brother or sister" at the plant because it violates their contract!

My opinion is that initially Unions were great for the workforce-but greed set in and now all union workers believe they deserve more $$$ to do less!

I am against giving the failing industry a dime-if they can't run a business-let it fail!

Wake up people the assemblers are only installing subassemblies. The rest of the costs are suppliers. There will be pain all the way down.

Don't be jealous of union workers who make a decent living. We should have more Americans making a living wage. These people don't just buy motorcycles and boats....they send their children to college and help their adult children with down payments for homes. These people keep our econony moving and support important institutions. The reason we are having difficulty pulling ourselves out of this depression is because of low incomes and job losses. Don't pull these people down.....we need more like them.

Are you folks truly that lost? It's MANAGEMENT, or MISMANAGEMENT that is ruining these companies. I say have a federal buyout and sell 2/3 of the shares back to the workers. Your profit-first zealous deregulatory miopia has gotten us in the mess we are in.

Oh I didn't read the headline right..it says UAW concessions not 'confessions'..my bad!

If I read this article correctly about UAW concessions, the laid off workers receive 95% of their pay while laid off?  Please!!! I am guessing (hoping, actually) this is instead of state unemployment, but even at 95% what a crock!! The unemployment checks total, what, about 1/2 of what a worker was earning to try to get him/her through after being laid off.  At 95%, no wonder the auto industry is costing so much in end result.  In a way, this is all kinda of good, the big 3 in trouble; look at all the little details that are coming to light. 

I hate it has come to this, but the big 3 and UAW have nobody to blame but themselves. I remember for YEARS the Detroit-made products were junk... people not doing a good job, and couldn't be fired because of the union.  What goes around ...

Extinct animals:

T-Rex

Brontosaurus

Pterodactyl

UAW

Saber Tooth Tiger

And yet, the financial companies...that do absolutely NOTHING except play with spreadsheets and think of how to stab each other in the back are glorified and bailed out to the tune of 10 times these amounts.

At least the unions BUILD something.

In a war, would you rather have GM or AIG at your back?

I have worked in nuclear medicine for the past 23 years and do not make near the $45/hr average salary that the UAW makes.  Also, if business gets bad and I get laid off, I don't continue to draw 95% of my salary.  I have health insurance, but not with the lack of co-pays or deductibles that the UAW gets.  Don't get me wrong, my father was an IBEW union member for 40 years until he retired.  His pay was good and he had awesome benifits.  However, when negotiation time came, they bargained for reasonable pay increases based on the cost of living increases, not to feather their bed.  The UAW has to change or die on the vine.

I agree we should have more Americans making a living wage.  I certainly do not make a living wage.  I go to work every day and actually work while I'm there.  I have three teenage children with one graduating high school this year.  I can't afford to send him to college, buy him an American car (because they are way out of reach for me) or any car for that matter, so tell me, would any of these union workers be willing to help me out.  I really doubt it.  Isn't the education of my children just as important as theirs.  How dare you claim that union workers do wonderful things for our economy, when they are partly to blame for the mess we are in right now.  I would gladly take one of there jobs at even half the wage as I would certainly be better off than I am right now.

You know what.  I say screw the automakers.  They got themselves in this boat.  If the government wants to get out of this recesion I say give the money to the people.  Let us pay off our loans with the money.  Then we would start spending more on toys then trying to pinch pennies to save our houses.  You bail out a car company, great, its gonna be right back on the whole in six months because the people still don't have money to buy cars.

UAW should take a 50 percent cut in pay across the board, then maybe Americans can purchase an American made automobile for what it is actually worth, not what the unions make it worth. Until then can Americans say TOYOTA, NISSAN, MAZDA

GM is wrong in thinking that a bankruptcy filing would cause potential car buyers to be suspicious.  First of all, their sales are already down 40-50% & they haven't filed.  But, more importantly, a bankruptcy filing built around a viable reorganization plan, to include nullifying the union credits & starting all over with them in order to return to cost-competitiveness, would actually help restore the public's faith in their ability to stay in business over the long haul.

Sure, about time.  Why wasn't some of this dealt with a along time ago.

Well I guess time will tell how this all plays out.

Pumple

I agree with you, unfortunately during the height of the $700.00 Billion Dollar bailout fiasco....they 'congress' heard from us. And we overwhelmingly did not approve...but they passed it anyway. So much for taxation with representation. Its enough to make a true patriot sick!

The Union didn't ruin these company's. They did them selves. You can't give into union demands that will bankrupt the company..They bought into all these plans the unions sought. The Unions said hey this is easy, Do you really blame the rank and file union member? All these anti union people have to stop and think how low their wages would be if it wasn't for unions get more wages and benefit's for their members..

The non union companies had to raise wages and offer better benefits to keep the unions out... So thank a union worker....

Mainebound- I worked in the auto repair business for yrs and I too remember the junk coming out of Detroit. Thing is, vehicles that I saw weren't falling apart due to sloppy installations. What I saw was parts failure(worn out). Where did that come from? Not from the trunk hinge installer ( who alot of you wish you were, but aren't, so you'll bad mouth him/her). The crappy parts had to be approved by designers,engineers,accountants, project co-ordinators and other salaried employees in the offices overlooking the assenmbly lines. I am a union member and I do agree that 95% pay for not working is ridiculous. I'm not really sure I believe that figure based on hearsay, but if true, it is out line . Even more wrong is the multi million dollar bonus for the CEO who cannot manage. Both sides have to get their act together.  And as the consuming public, you need to realize a couple things. No matter what concessions the unions make to the auto,airline,entertainment or any other industry, the chances of price roll backs so you non union folks can afford the products are slim to none.  Investers will just be looking for larger dividends, there won't be any trickle down at the cash register. And a poster above was right, The members  make a good dollar, but they spend it too, which I believe also helps the economy, maybe even letting you keep your job at Walmart one more day.

If the companies don't give into union ideals...they go on strike and leave the company in dire straits. Companies either give into the demands which at times are extreme or go out of business or make concessions out of necessity because of union demands..those that eventually cause the company to lose its competitive edge.

Doesn't really do any good to call your congressmen any more, they just go with the norm.  And the rest of us are stuck holding the bag.   That $700 billion kinda proved all that.  What else can we do?  The government seems to do what they wont, no mater how loud we, the voters and tax payers, speak up in disapproval.   

This guy has ba*ls that are just too big!!  Who does he think he is??  They need to throw him out and perhaps they'd be able to get somewhere!!  Bankruptcy is exactly what is needed for GM at least!!  Why should UAW workers get 95% of their salary for two years if they're laid off??  Why should they get full benefits???  Why should they get full pensions?? Why should the people of America have to pay for them??  There are millions now without jobs, much less pensions or healthcare!!!  They deserve the gutter and maybe they'd actually learn something!~!!

Unions are for losers!  People who work hard for an honest day's pay are the ones that need and want the jobs.  Get rid of all the union riff-raf, and their leaders!  We are way past that!  We are a new generation of free thinkers who don't need to be enabled by some stupid union organization.  America is in the process of "changing"!  So, let's start with the auto companies.  Get rid of the high-paying CEOs and their loser unions.   

The top management of the unions should take a 50% pay cut while the CEO's of GM and Ford should work for free until they clear up their financial and management mess. The CEO's should not get any stock options period as incentive on the back end.

There are those folks that keep dissing the unions. Not all unions are alike just like not all companies' CEOs are incompetent. 

Perhaps the reason why the other auto companies are treating their workers fairly is because they are afraid to have their factory turn into another union shop. Lol

A lot of manufacturing jobs have gone overseas with the outsourcing that was the trend and may still be for all we know.  Many of these jobs did not have unions and lets face it, does anyone think the employees who were and are losing their jobs have any say in the matter? Perhaps if they had a union the upper echelons of the companies would not have had it so easy to shop their jobs overseas like they did.   

It is  easy to ignore one voice or a few voices, but very difficult to have to face many voices speaking in unison. Usually that is what gets the media's attention and the rest of the country. One of the biggest employers - Walmart was by all accounts not paying or giving much benefits to their employees, until it appeared that the workers wanted to unionize. It may be that the unions have some use after all.

It would also appear that most in the media seem to be a bit biased against the unions which seem to be blamed for all ills, just because they are looking out for their workers just like the board of a company looks out for their own. 

The CEO of the most powerful corporation in the USA  i.e. the President of the United States of America does not get the salary that these other CEOs make.

I am not a union member but I do realize they have their uses.  I do not blame the unions for the big three melt down, I blame the management. 

The financial institutions do not have any unions so who is to blame for their meltdown?

To :

I used to have a union job.  I quit because I couldn't stand the job - or the union.  I also don't take interviews with union employers - such as NY state.  But, I would just like to say that any union member that I met hates Wal-Mart and would rather pay more at any other store than spend their money there - I doubt that union members are the reason people keep jobs at Wal-Mart.

The union where I used to work, as far as I am concerned, was just as bad - if not worse - than the management that it lobbied against.  And, the only thing that they were good for was to fight for the right of the laziest people in the workplace to not have to do any work.  Just my experience.

Unions may have their faults but let's face some facts, the execs haven't done their jobs but have gotten the lionshare of the money and benes.  why haven't we produced better cars?  it's not because of the Unions.

This is absolutely true and the workers are too hard headed to accept it. I almost think they would be happier with no job than to give any concessions. When this country can put together a national health plan, all companies can drop these company subsidized health and pension plans. They need to participate in private 401Ks' like everyone else. It goes without saying what the CEOs' need to do.

i agree grinch! the union (uaw) has had their way way to long!!

This is a first and foremost a union problem, followed by a failed business model, plain and simple.  Where else in the world today can you not work and retain 95% of your salary, where else can you make $30.00hr with no education?  Detroit cannot keep up with foreign development if they are basically a giant HMO that just happens to produce some overpriced under-engineered vehicles.  Get into a Toyota, Honda or VW take a look at the materials used in their interior, feel the controls, the ergonomics, even the sound of the door shutting.  Look at the panel fit outside, running gear, then compare all of that to any vehicle the Big 3 produces.  Even the venerable Corvette, Chrysler 300, our "flagships" if you will are a sea of dead plastic and shoddy workmanship ($70K a yr workmanship at that).  After you eliminate the unions, which has to be done, not restructuring, eliminating the unions, you have to address the problem of why you produce three of everything?!  Is there a single Mercury that is not just a trim level of a comparable Ford, does the same not ring true for Lincoln?  GM is the textbook example of this, Chevrolet pickup or GMC?? Hmmm, see any similarities?  The hisory of these companies is storied, true, but tell that to the Olds family right now, they understand what has to be done.  Follow the Japanese/German model it works!  For every Toyota you have a Lexus or a Scion, each targeted specifically and wildly varied in their offerings, the same could be said for VW/Audi.  Try this on on for size: Ford/Lincoln, Saturn/Chevy/Cadillac; get the picture?  It's sad but ridding yourself of excess pointless labor and product is the only way to go... 

Since the unions have ruined these companies, it's time to shut them down and start over.  That way the union can be more in line with automakers like Toyota and be competitive.  To think that these workers deserve to be paid when they are not working is ridiculous!!!!  Time for these greedy unions to wake up!!!!!

GOP wants to cause the next great depression

and then blame it on Obama.  GOP are THE

most unpatriotic and greedy people anywhere.

techie.. gop usually want to help business.. we do not know who voted for what, and heres a clue you forgot.. the majority of the congress are democrats you twit!

So lets go over things shall we?  The dems wont let us drill for oil, the economy, I am sure we all have seen, runs on oil.  Opec is in trouble now because we arent using as much of their oil, and these american car company's are in trouble.  (but like a good little liberal news reporter, they dont tell you that toyota and other foriegn car company's have suffered as well.

So since I dont think switching to wind power will help the economy, why dont we drill for more oil and maybe it will create more jobs and energy prices may go down.  I laugh when I see one of you libs talk about the electric car, like that has been perfected yet.  The volt doesnt work, and the great Toyota hasnt made a successful all-electric car yet.

If we all switch to electric cars tomorrow, where will we all plug in while at home, travelling, or at work?  How far do they go.. is that what libs think.. we should only drive twenty miles a day?  geeze, be a little realistic will ya?  we don't live in Walden.

One line really got me - these plans "....would allow the taxpayers to share in future gains IF THEY RECOVER."  Emphasis added - what a big IF. 

Geez - I might as well take my tax dollars and buy a lottery ticket or go to the casinos and put the money in a slot machine.  Those things are "iffy", too, but I might have some fun at the slots!

techie

you are a fart smeller er, i mean smart feller.

Be careful of what you ask for.  We have already pledged our kids lives and fortunes for the bankers who make absolutely nothing (except interest from us on our debt).  Yes, there should be copious restrictions and conditions, and the corporate bigwigs should bear the brunt of them, but if we don't bail out this entire sector of the American (not foreign) economy, the results will be disastrous.  Your ill-advised, spiteful requests to make the bastards pay will come back to haunt you as we enter a depression that will make 1929 seem like a lark in the woods.  The governments of Europe and Asia would not fail to bail out their manufacturers and have done so many times in the past.  The failed leaders of those industries in those countries paid a dear price for their loss of face and respect, and so should ours.  Bail 'em out and let's get on with it!!

Poof

I agree!!

The UAW is a huge problem, but the management is a huge problem as well.  What needs to be done is this: (1) the UAW either needs to be dissolved completely or take huge concessions; (2) the management needs to take huge concessions - eliminate bonuses, raises, etc.; when you're loosing money, no one should be allowed to take home extra pay.  Bonuses are great when the company makes a profit, not when the company is near bankruptcy and asking the U.S. Gov't (of all people) for a financial lifeline.  The UAW (and its brass, like Mr. Gettlefinger) need to wake up and learn that unions are fine when employees are being underpaid and overworked, not overpaid and underworked.  Several other postings above - Stan W., mith1215, gene-752532, the old hippie - say much about how unions are bad, and they can be (i.e. - Teamsters and the mob during the 1970's), but I like the posting by Allen-752603.  Allen says that

"The Japanese autos pay their people relatively the same as the Big 3. The difference is a worker for the Japanese company will not only drive a forklift, but he/she will also package parts, unpack parts, fill in at other locations as required. I can't tell you how many times I've gone to a Big 3 dock and see forklift drivers sitting reading papers, drinking coffee, etc. waiting for trucks to come in. AND, if you as a truck driver are at the wrong dock, which may be 3 feet away, they will tell you to move your truck over to the other dock because they can't move anything except for this one dock." 

This type of excess is what is driving the Big 3 down.  Just because the UAW says that you have to give a person $80/hr in wages and benefits AND give him/her 92% of their salary (and benefits) after they're laid off (i.e. - a jobs bank), doesn't mean that it has to happen.  I wish I had that type of job security!!  Why try to find work after being laid off in the first place!?!  The UAW should have to take a 50% pay cut across the board - no questions asked - or dissolve completely.  Management should also have to take a massive pay cut across the board.  The Big 3 should probably go into bankuptcy and reorganize.  Then, they could dissolve the UAW and follow the business plan of their competitors in the Southeast - Toyota, Honda, etc.  Those manufacturers don't have a union and they're not requiring a bailout.  Their workers make about half of what the UAW workers make, and everything's fine.  The UAW is the whole problem, but it's a big part of it.

Yeah its always the unions fault....its all those 40 hour workers who make enough to buy their own houses and have decent healthcare....

Its all there fault....they're all living like Tom Cruise...

Pathetic

Theres plenty of greed in corporate america don't just blame the unions. We bailed out the richest with the rescue of wall street but we won't help the only real manufacturing sector we have left in the US. If the auto indusry goes under we will loose over 1.5 million jobs because of all the associated industries that are tied to the auto makers. If you think its bad now wait till this happens. This is the same industry that also can retool in time of war to build military machinery when needed because of there assembly lines. With all the problems in the world we need to save this industry. There have put together a good plan and the unions have said they are willing to make concessions. They know whats at stake too.

What alot of people out there that have no real clue as to how many people will be affecte if this bail out doesn't go through.  I work for one of the main suppliers of the door seals for all three of these companies.  If this fails, everyone one that supplies them are also affected.  I am a single mom of 4 kids.  I don't make anywhere near what they do in Detroit.  I am now the only one in my entire family working w/ the economy the way it is.  I am trying to support my kids, 2 grandbabies, my mother, & one brother on what I make.  I get no help from the government in any way.  I am now facing unemployment myself since slow sales of the automobiles has also slowed our sales.  It's not the unions that have created this mess.  It's the CEO's that run these companies.  Before people run their mouths about this whole mess, they really need to do their homework.  Alot of us in the automotive industry DO NOT make anywhere near the outrageous salaries that they do in Detroit, but our lives depend on this bail out just the same.  I really hope that the clueless people like this are eventually hit when the same problem in their own indusrty soon.

   Thats our Government for ya, It looks like wall street kisses their azz more than the Auto people... Our Government may be in cahoots with other countries too, and they plan to buy out the US auto makers, look at the rest of American Companies, they are not American owned anymore, Budwiser is no longer an American Company, Miller Coors is not American owned either, the oldest ball bearing company is no longer an American owned either...  Wall mart is a pipe line for China too... And yes the Union workers are so lazy anymore, I use to be in the Teamsters, and the older guys would tell use to slow down, and they would milk the job for more hours, and then they wonder why the company was going to go out of buisness... The American worker has gotten so lazy, and it is all the Governments fault... Cause the people are getting so fed up with giving most of their pay to taxes, there was an artical in the Asbury park press a few years ago, and it said that the average pay , pays almost 65 % of the pay check goes to pay taxes, you got federal tax, state tax, sales tax,unemploy tax,ss tax, property tax, there were more listed in the artical too, and I believe it came to 64.8% went to pay taxes...   The US Government has ruined the American Dream for Americans, they have ruined the American Spirit too, thats why the workers don't have any pride left, half of them don't even want to work cause of taxes... And this Wall Street bail out is just showing the American people, that the Government does not even care about us anymore, and they do what they want with our money, and they knew about this whole mess before it became a mess, the Banks caused this mess, and now we have to give the banks our taxes ??? Boy, I wish I can just blow all my money, and just get more from the people's taxes... What a great scam... The US Government is nothing but a Legalized Mafia....  And they put the Mafia people in prison, for doing the same things the Government does...

You are so uneducated. Average UAW workers make around 60,000 take home. They are competeing with automakers offshore that have national healthcare etc. They make a little more than the southern automakers but the money from the cars they make stays here in America.

I don't disagree that the UAW is a huge part of the problem. They do need to make massive concessions, but the simple fact of the manner is that regardless of what they have negotiated in the past, if the US automakers are not bailed out they will go under. When they do the cascading effects will be absolutely devastating to the American economy as a whole. There will be several hundred thousand jobs lost in MI alone. It will cost more than a million jobs nationwide. The unemployment benefits that will have to be payed out will be somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 billion in the first year. There will be close to 1 Million mortgage foreclosures, totaling $150 - 200 billion dollars. The Mortgage industry will need to be bailed out once again. People like me, who don't work for the automotive industry, but live in states like Michigan and others that depend on the automotive industry will face even more dramatic losses in the value of they're homes. When those values fall to far many people will simply walk away from homes that are worth 50% to 75 % of what they owe. The national credit crunch that we are experiencing now will get much worse, If you don't have a big chunk of cash, and a credit score in the high 700's, don't even bother applying for a mortgage, you won't get it. Housing prices will fall nationally, because no one will be able get financing, and houses won't sell. This is not just a problem for the automakers and they're employees, it is a problem for the whole country. I don't like the fact that we had to bail out the financial industry, but it was a necessary evil. The bailout of the automotive industry is every bit as neccessary, because the consequences of not doing it will be so far reaching there are very few people in this country who will not be affected, even if they think they won't.

I work with the largest US poultry company that filed Chapter 11 this week.  We aren't in line for a bailout.  But, our 48,000 workers and vendors (just like the big 3) could possibly lose jobs and businesses. 

We don't need more cars in this country....we need more mass transit and alternative (non-food related) fuels.  My commute into Atlanta is almost 3 hours per day.  Give me an alternative that isn't a bus.  Give incentives to people to use this mass transit.

I won't probably ever buy another American made car.  My new Ford Mustang's transmission went out at 4500 miles, again at 9000 miles and they kept it in the shop each time almost 2 weeks.  The alternator went out within 2 years and I had to replace those terrible soft tires every year.  One of my best friends had almost identical problems with his same year Mustang at the same mileage points.  But, there was never any kind of recall.  Beautiful car, but I needed it to run.  Traded for a Kia Sportage and love it.  Not one issue in 65,000 miles.

Guess thats what happens when you have enough people in back pockets.  I think we said enough back pocket business with this last election.  Didn't we?

These companies have been living too high on the hog for too long.  Our employees sure don't make anywhere near what the Big 3 employees make and our's put food on your tables!

First off the union hasn't destroyed anything corporate greed has people that still think it the union and the employees that make the car cost so much are just plain to dumb to look for facts instead of media hype. The total cost of building the car including wages is less than a quarter of the total price. corporate greed is what hurt us the economy and the big three no union and no i'm not in a union I just do my research some others in here should try it. 

In case no one noticed its never been about our country or the average person in it. We could have lived without all those banks that were about to fold but the rich an the big stock holders couldn't so bail out time. The auto industry will mostly hurt the average joe so capital hill doesn't care they don't care of any or all the big three collapse because mostly its going to hurt us regular guys. So they will let them fold pat themselves on the back for not bailing them out when the people are crying for it. Maybe we should say no don't do it so they will isn't  that what happened with the banks. Our government is destroying our country and they can't be so stupid to not know it so why are they doing it? They have to have something up their sleeves. We need a revolution badly.

No Bail Out!  Next?

If 61% of the American public say NO, that pretty much sums it up. I believe the public is sick of bail outs in general. FHA was and is backed by the full faith and credit of the government. The others were deemed "too big to fail". It seems to me the public is willing to let GM file for bankruptcy in the hope they'll come out stronger, wiser, and definitely leaner.  Pan Am, TWA, Bethlehem steel, American Motors, Studebaker, Trailways, and countless others didn't survive. When you're hanging on by a thread and you hit an economic downturn---all it does is accelerate what was already happening. A quick ending opposed to a slow death.      

Stan W.

I have no faith, nor grant any credit, to the US government.

AS to the the car industry bail out...I'd be for it...if workers were on federal minimum wage, ALL employees, management and hourly, subject to immediate termination for just cause, and any possible bonuses were directly tied to ALL workers based on quality and profit factors.

Other than that, they can shrivel up smaller than my cantaringerfortistat.

S - if the public truly wanted those tesla's, the market would have them on lots now. the public is still buying suv's and pickups, not just because it's all that's offered.

I am sympathetic to ALL the posts that don't support "bailouts" to the automakers. However, everyone needs to keep in mind that these companies themselves are not the only ones that will get hurt should they fail or, at best, seek bankruptcy protection. Their failure will reach deep into American society. Millions of American retirees are counting on these companies for their retirement funds; Every time you turn on your television, you are viewing shows that are sponsored by these companies, so advertising revenue will plummet AND the shows they are sponsoring will either have to find new sponsors or just not be aired. Literally hundreds of sporting events are sponsored, in part, by these companies and, although a case could be made for not airing these events, a lot of people will be hurt by them not being aired. This affects, not only the television networks, but all their supporting industries. So, although, they should be held responsible for their inept management and forced to produce not just plans, but viable plans for restructuring and success before they receive aid, these companies are vital to the American economy and cannot be allowed to fail. Just my two cents!

one thing i noticed in article was Reid saying Bush administration would have to unilaterally issue loans out of the $700 billion bailout voted in earlier since congress didn't have votes to do it.

They are just trying to get something else to blame on bush not if but WHEN it doesn't work. Don't do it GW, dont' do it!!! If dodd and Reid and pelosis want it, get the votes! You've got the majority.

the uaw has led the american auto industry around the by nose for many years and their members are arrogant with an entitlement attitude. the unfortunate result is that not only will many of them lose their good paying jobs and benefits, but so will many thousands of others who work for the suppliers.

the big three has to come up with a strong plan, starting with reducing the uaw benefits and high pay to which they have been accustomed. i don't think one less boat or motorcycle will hurt most of them.

I did not write this but it expresses my feelings on the issue better than I ever could! 

As I watch the coverage of the fate of the U.S. auto industry, one alarming and frustrating fact hits me right between the eyes. The fate of our nation's economic survival is in the hands of some congressmen who are completely out of touch and act without knowledge of an industry that affects almost every person in our nation. The same lack of knowledge is shared with many journalists whom are irresponsible when influencing the opinion of millions of viewers.

Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama has doomed the industry, calling it a dinosaur. No Mr. Shelby, you are the dinosaur, with ideas stuck in the '70s, '80s and '90s. You and the uninformed journalist and senators that hold onto myths that are not relevant in today's world.

When you say that the Big Three build vehicles nobody wants to buy, you must have overlooked that GM outsold Toyota by about 1.2 million vehicles in the U.S. and Ford outsold Honda by 850,000 and Nissan by 1.2 million in the U.S. GM was the world's No. 1 automaker beating Toyota by 3,000 units.

When you claim inferior quality comes from the Big Three, did you realize that Chevy makes the Malibu and Ford makes the Fusion that were both rated over the Camry and Accord by J.D. Power independent survey on initial quality? Did you bother to read the Consumer Report that rated Ford on par with good Japanese automakers.

Did you realize Big Three's gas guzzlers include the 33 mpg Malibu that beats the Accord. And for '09 Ford introduces the Hybrid Fusion whose 39 mpg is the best midsize, beating the Camry Hybrid. Ford's Focus beats the Corolla and Chevy's Cobalt beats the Civic.

When you ask how many times are we going to bail them out you must be referring to 1980. The only Big Three bailout was Chrysler, who paid back $1 billion, plus interest. GM and Ford have never received government aid.

When you criticize the Big Three for building so many pickups, surely you've noticed the attempts Toyota and Nissan have made spending billions to try to get a piece of that pie. Perhaps it bothers you that for 31 straight years Ford's F-Series has been the best selling vehicle. Ford and GM have dominated this market and when you see the new '09 F-150 you'll agree this won't change soon.

Did you realize that both GM and Ford offer more hybrid models than Nissan or Honda. Between 2005 and 2007, Ford alone has invested more than $22 billion in research and development of technologies such as Eco Boost, flex fuel, clean diesel, hybrids, plug in hybrids and hydrogen cars.

It's 2008 and the quality of the vehicles coming out of Detroit are once again the best in the world.
Perhaps Sen. Shelby isn't really that blind. Maybe he realizes the quality shift to American. Maybe it's the fact that his state of Alabama has given so much to land factories from Honda, Hyundai and Mercedes Benz that he is more concerned about their continued growth than he is about the people of our country. Sen. Shelby's disdain for "government subsidies" is very hypocritical. In the early '90s he was the driving force behind a $253 million incentive package to Mercedes. Plus, Alabama agreed to purchase 2,500 vehicles from Mercedes. While the bridge loan the Big Three is requesting will be paid back, Alabama's $180,000-plus per job was pure incentive. Sen. Shelby, not only are you out of touch, you are a self-serving hypocrite, who is prepared to ruin our nation because of lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence in making your opinions and decisions.

After 9/11, the Detroit Three and Harley Davidson gave $40 million-plus emergency vehicles to the recovery efforts. What was given to the 9/11 relief effort by the Asian and European Auto Manufactures? $0 Nada. Zip!

We live in a world of free trade, world economy and we have not been able to produce products as cost efficiently. While the governments of other auto producing nations subsidize their automakers, our government may be ready to force its demise. While our automakers have paid union wages, benefits and legacy debt, our Asian competitors employ cheap labor. We are at an extreme disadvantage in production cost. Although many UAW concessions begin in 2010, many lawmakers think it's not enough.

Some point the blame to corporate management. I would like to speak of Ford Motor Co. The company has streamlined by reducing our workforce by 51,000 since 2005, closing 17 plants and cutting expenses. Product and future product is excellent and the company is focused on one Ford. This is a company poised for success. Ford product quality and corporate management have improved light years since the nightmare of Jacques Nasser. Thank you Alan Mulally and the best auto company management team in the business.

The financial collapse caused by the secondary mortgage fiasco and the greed of Wall Street has led to a $700 billion bailout of the industry that created the problem. AIG spent nearly $1 million on three company excursions to lavish resorts and hunting destinations. Paulson is saying no to $250 billion foreclosure relief and the whole thing is a mess. So when the Big Three ask for 4 percent of that of the $700 billion, $25 billion to save the country's largest industry, there is obviously oppositions. But does it make sense to reward the culprits of the problem with $700 billion unconditionally, and ignore the victims?

As a Ford dealer, I feel our portion of the $25 billion will never be touched and is not necessary. Ford currently has $29 billion of liquidity. However, the effect of a bankruptcy by GM will hurt the suppliers we all do business with. A Chapter 11 bankruptcy by any manufacture would cost retirees their health care and retirements. Chances are GM would recover from Chapter 11 with a better business plan with much less expense. So who foots the bill if GM or all three go Chapter 11? All that extra health care, unemployment, loss of tax base and some forgiven debt goes back to the taxpayer, us. With no chance of repayment, this would be much worse than a loan with the intent of repayment.

So while it is debatable whether a loan or Chapter 11 is better for the Big Three, a $25 billion loan is definitely better for the taxpayers and the economy of our country.

So I'll end where I began on the quality of the products of Detroit. Before you, Mr. or Ms. Journalist continue to misinform the American public and turn them against one of the great industries that helped build this nation, I must ask you one question. Before you, Mr. or Madam Congressman vote to end health care and retirement benefits for 1 million retirees, eliminate 2.5 million of our nation's jobs, lose the technology that will lead us in the future and create an economic disaster including hundreds of billions of tax dollars lost, I ask this question not in the rhetorical sense. I ask it in the sincere, literal way. Can you tell me, have you driven a Ford lately?

What are the auto makers' supposed to say, Paul? "We're doing everything we can to be successful, but the Unions are underminding us?" I don't think they'd say that.

****Saturday, November 15, 2008 Gettelfinger: No more UAW concessions
Mark Williams / Associated Press
COLUMBUS, Ohio -- Even as Detroit's Big Three teeter on collapse, United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger said Saturday that workers will not make any more concessions and that getting the automakers back on their feet means figuring out a way to turn around the slumping economy.

"The focus has to be on the economy as a whole as opposed to a UAW contract," Gettelfinger told reporters on a conference call, noting the labor costs now make up 8 percent to 10 percent of the cost of a vehicle****

***From ABC News: November 18th: It is imperative for the union that the automakers are propped up rather than allowed to declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy would be a move that would abrogate their contract, putting them in an even worse situation than having to make concessions.***

***DETROIT (AP) DEC 3 - Worried about their jobs and warned that the cost of failure could be a depression, hundreds of leaders of the United Auto Workers voted overwhelmingly Wednesday to make concessions to the struggling Detroit Three, including all but ending a much-derided program that let laid-off workers collect up to 95 percent of their salaries.

"Everybody has to give a little bit," said Rich Bennett, an official for Local 122 in Twinsburg, Ohio, representing Chrysler workers. "We've made concessions. We really feel we're doing our part."

Union leaders also agreed to let the cash-starved automakers delay billions of dollars in payments to a union-administered trust set to take over health care for blue-collar retirees starting in 2010.

In addition, they decided to let the Detroit leadership begin renegotiating elements of landmark contracts signed with the automakers last year, a move that could lead to wage concessions. ***

The Union was planning to do nothing to help the automakers originally because they thought the Big 3 would get the money the first time they went to congress. Now when it's not looking so good, they have a few things they're conceding.

1) the jobs bank was reduced drastically already in 2007, limiting a person to 2 years in it where b4 it could almost be an indefinite benefit, so this extra "concession" will supposedly drop this job banks benefit from 2 years to 12 months.

2) UAW has agreed to allow automakers to DELAY payment of billions of dollars payments to union trust. The word DELAY would mean the payments are still expected in the future, probably with interest.

3) UAW agreed to renogotiate contracts from 2007 that COULD lead to wage concessions. These renegotiations MAY or may NOT lead to wage concessions.

They really have conceded very little. You, Mr. Tenny are the one who doesn't have a clue.

Being a Chrysler employee, and a proud member of union local 685 it is embarissing of everyone's misconception of the union. Yes we do make a decent wage, only $1.00 more than the foreign automakers. But we don't have to worry about being fired from our jobs if we refuse to work 7 days a week, 12 hour days. What helps the foreign auto makers is that back in their homeland, they have national health care. Why doesn't our government pay for everyone's health care here in the U.S.. This would help our domestic automakers. Another thing that would help would be to adjust the tariff on the foreign automakers that ship their cars here. I get a hard  time from my co-workers when I tell them I would gladly take a pay cut if it would help. I have told them that I used to scrub toilets for $ I don't have a problem doing it for $(current pay), and if I had to take a pay cut to keep my job I would do it. This is not a popular sentiment among my union brothers and sisters, but it may be a realistic one. Stop blaming just the unions, it is also managements. They were not responsive to what the current economic problems are.

The Democrats don't have enough guts to hurt the UAW.  The big 3 have to get the union off their back.  I would compare it to running a race with a sack of cement on your back as a handicap.

Who is really worried about chapter 11 as it does not mean closing down; it just gives the Auto Manufactures more leverage to negotiate with the UAW.  Let it happen just like the airlines.  Did we panic then?

For all of you bashing the unions, the assembly line workers, and everyone else you can point your fingers at, try looking in the mirror.  We are ALL responsible for the mess we are in, the houses that were a little out of our reach, the gas guzzling SUV's (How many of you have one of them in your driveway?), the extravagant vacations, the "toys" big and small.  Of course I think the auto industry is a mess, and measures need to be taken, but we all need to assume some measure of responsibility.  Yes, the CEO's should pay a price, which I think should be their jobs, but lets live in reality here.  The auto industry provided a product that we the consumer asked for.  If we had demanded cars with better gas mileage and hybrids, perhaps Detroit would have produced that or at least tried.  Stop pointing fingers, you all sound like a pack of dogs turning on what ever is in sight!!!

Why not force them to work together on creating a more efficient drivetrain for the US market. At least all three will not have to redisgn the wheel and by doing so slashes the cost by +-2/3 us$? It is a start.

Michael Moore says it best on Larry King Live. Check out the video at www.michaelmoore.com

While we are holding the auto companies accountable, lets hold the members of the "House and Senate" accountable for the incompetent job they did overseeing the housing loans, and banks. If it wasn't for their lax oversight, we would not even be talking about loaning the auto companies money!  

American made products are worth standing up for. We give other countrys too much advantage over the american worker. Because their products are cheaper. The middle class exist because of jobs like this. The american dream is disappearing. Homes and jobs top the list of these.  I support using bail out money for saving american jobs. Auto workers have been the back bone of America. All bail out money should be only used to help Americans.

Yeah...I remember my Dad saying "those guys are going to strike themselves out of jobs"...and that was about the steel industry in Youngstown Ohio...History repeats itself like clock work.

Time and time again the Japaneese embarass the U.S. in manufacturing. They find ways to make better products and make them for less.

They should let the big three go bankrupt.  Sales are down now, but if they get the bailout are they going to lower prices of the vehicles?  They will be in the same spot they are in after paying the UAW.  UAW is a joke, they are the reason the companies are in this situation to start with.  They make way too much per hour so it drives up the cost of the automobiles.  Chrysler should not get any bailout money since they don't have to open their books since they are a private company.  We should not offer them anything unless they agree to open the books.  The Big Three CEO's working for $1 per year, what a joke, what other incentives are they getting?  Maybe if the cars were sold cheaper their sales might be start to go back up.  Let them go BANKRUPT, get ride of the UAW and the CEO's.

I am impressed..u r right..and i totally agree with u..I watch US cars advertised on TV for $30,000..who are they kidding?  Asian cars r 1/2 that..and 2x as good..my asian car has 190,000 miles on it..still runs perfectly..let the 3 big car cos fail..so we can build $6500 cars here that get 65mpg..sooner the better

Bankruptcy will put the final dagger in GM and the others. Only an idiot would spend thousands of dollars to purchase a car from a company in bankruptcy. Those who say "let GM go bankrupt" are really saying "Let GM go out of business." Yessirree, let's get rid of all the American auto makers and buy our cars from the foreigners

The auto industry requests are outrageous. 

They want 4% of the $700 billion effectively unsupervised Wall Street bailout.

It is the equivalent of two whole months of the war in Iraq, which, incidentally, we did not need to fight in the first place.

We need to break the unions so that we can achieve Republican Nirvana - $100 million dollar execs and minimum wage employees. 

We are steadily moving towards a third world economy.

Just to clarify one thing, although money spent in Iraq and Afghanistan is attributed directly to the wars, if we brought all the soldiers home, we'd stil be paying them and feeding them. They'd still be training and using fuel. Many of the costs are fixed.

I know it's exciting for many of you to bash bush and complain about what's being spent in mid east, but much of it is simply money spent there that would be spent elsewhere anyway. example: Military unit at Fort Hood here in texas training, eating, being paid. Regular military budget. They transfer to Iraq, and the cost is then considered part of the war.

Now if you're talking about disbanding the military and just sititng down with foreign leaders and fighting wars with pencils, that's another thing. I for one believe a strong military is necessary and also feel ours should be built up more than it is.

It would be alot cheaper to have the military train in Texas in stead of overseas. No combat pay, considerably lower shipping costs, it would save alot of money.

Darrell,

There is a big difference between money spent here and money spent in Iraq.  If soldiers are home, they still contribute to the tax base.  Over there, which is considered a hostile zone, they pay no taxes.  Also, there are further contirbutions to the economy simply because they would be consumers here when not deployed. 

Does that mean disband?  No.  But the demand for people, weapons, and other materials would be greatly reduced with less deployed.  The costs are not fixed.

As a member of the Military, receiving tax free pay while in a combat zone is a small price to pay to keep America safe.  I would gladly serve my country again any where I am called without that tax break.  We do contribute to the economy, what, do you think we don't have families that spend in the community when we are gone?? 

What we do, has nothing to do with this economy, the cost of the Military is mute to the woes our Nation faces right now.  If you want to think of it in simple terms, our fighting the ememies of this great nation on foriegn soils actually increases job creation here at home, spurs the economy on and provides this Nation with tax paying citizens.  I would rather not see a war, but they do happen, they are needed from time to time. 

Don't be stupid though, yes wars cost money, but they also create jobs at home.  It is a sad fact that the world can't get along.  Our Nation will prevail in our war on terrorism and it will overcome this economic down turn.  Don't panic, continue with your lives and hold your Congress accountable for every dime they spend in this bail out fiasco. 

Let the auto industry bail themselves out by first chapter 11 bankruptcy, America is strong enough to survive.  The one bright side is the economy will reset itself and prices will go down to where they should be. 

The UAW is in a panic right now, calling emergency meetings to save themselves, they need to go away and go away fast.  The UAW is costing thousands of jobs and the sad part is giving the opprotunity, the workers the UAW represents without representation would gladly have a job that pays alot less with out the perks because they know the UAW will cost them there jobs in the long run.

to jim, I appreciate your service to country. I was never in military, but I have a son in marines.

To others, I am aware of some addnl costs due to war, but as I said "some of the costs are fixed." don't get fixated on your thinking that if we're spending 100 million dollars a day in Iraq, we'd be saving 100 million dollars a day if we got out of Iraq.

Strong military is important to a successful country. I've spoke to a number of servicemen I know who served in Iraq or afghanistan. They don't like having to fight over there, but as they say they'd much rather be fighting the enemy there than having their family and friends be subjected to attacks on our homeland.

Ok Jim

Was in the military myself (That's where the knowledge of tax breaks comes from).  I also reside in an area that is pretty military dominant. The question was neither about partiotism nor the necessity of wars it was a comparison of costs of deployed vs. home.  Sure there are families of those abroad still here, but there is a larger majority of those young, fresh out of high school types that have no family that tend to overextend themselves to the many, many faces of credit constantly thrown their way. 

Wasn't knocking the fact that the military abroad receives tax breaks (lord knows I enjoyed it), but was making a point when it comes to the benefit of a solder being abroad vs. home.

The union is already going to run adds in certain states targeting congress and senators running for office. They can not give to many concessions, but can run million dollar adds? The truth comes out, all they want to do is protect the UAW not the workers.

Um excuse me Scott - but the CEO's and higher ups in the Big 3 take way to much money.  They have put these companies in the position that they are today.

GREED!!!!!!!!!

The workers, sure may make to much, but you have to look at the top.

To much money wasted!!!!!!

Its not the unions. Its not the cars. Its credit geez read. Its not your tax money. Its is a loan. In this little bit of a scam they want to break the unions and get rid of the pensions they owe which the workers have contributed to. Foreign car makers want the US market. Toyotas car sales in the last quarter wer down 34% same as Fords. Wake up.

We are in a recession folks. All of the automakers, foreign and domestic are seeing their sales plummet. Nissan is down 43%, GM 41%, and Honda and Toyota are down 32%. The foreign automakers have not been around as long as the Big Three, so they do not have a cash flow problem. They also were given huge subsidies to build their plants here in the U.S. In Japan, the assembly line workers receive pensions and they have Universal Health Care, which can keep the cost of the car down. Not too many people are old enough to start drawing pensions. GM is selling Saab, Hummer, possibly Buick to China and Pontiac will make a few niche vehicles. Saturn could also be on the obituary list. If GM is forced to file for Chapt. 11, which lawmakers are pushing for, it would rid retiree's of their pensions. They would have to collect their pensions from the Federal Pension Program, which tax payers fund. Many who have not retired will have their homes foreclosed, causing a need for more bank bailouts. Guess who will be paying for that, the tax payer. People are so diligent about berating the UAW and the domestic automakers. WHY? Haven't we seen enough job losses,  or enough people suffering from the hardship of being unemployed or not being able to find a job that pays a livable wage. Congress has given Wall Street $700 billion, not including the billions they used to bailout Freddie and Fannie, yet approving a bridge loan to GM for a few billion dollars has caused such an uproar. The gov't and media are pitting the middle-class against one another, taking the focus off the real culprits.  The American people deserve GOOD PAYING JOBS, without a middle-class, we will have a two tier society, that of the rich and the poor.

One last thing, many GM retiree's have been replaced with younger workers who make $14 dollars/hour, w/out a pension. The foreign auto workers do much better than that. In the next few years, most who are making the $29/hour will retire and the GM worker will make $14/hr. Another fact for all, GM has more hybrids and flex fuels than the foreigns, as does Ford, and most domestic cars cost less than the camary's and accords. Go out and price a Malibu or G6, which has better styling and hybrid options than the honda's or toyota's.

Pinning everything on the union just doesn't make sense. Most companies have a wage to revenue ratio that they work off of. Money comming in vs what the product costs to build. If they can save money in one way the can either spend more or increase profit. If the company agreed to a union contract then they thought they could afford it.

The big problem is bad design, bad engineering and total ignorance to what the consumer really wanted. Those that are older remember the fuel embargo of the 70's The big three got caught then as their cars were out of touch. By the time they got newer cars to market the dammage was done. Chrysler had to borrow money from the feds. American Motors died.

I say Kill all of Chrysler. Get rid of Lincoln and Mercury too. Pontiac, Buick, GMC, Saab, and Hummer die too. Let the rest sort it out from there.

To hell with GM, Ford and Chrysler.  Let's bail out Toyota, Kia and Honda....our money's going to wind up there anyway.

4awareness,

It's not necessarily about putting the middle class vs. the middle calss.  They've been put to the forfront of this story.  There was also a huge uprising against bank bailouts too.  Guess what?  They have middle class employess too and NO ONE stood up for them.  The difference?  A union that can speak out. 

Americans have been against a bailout of any sort right from the beginning.

The other problem you have here is what the end result is likely going to be.  It goes back to your point:  all automakers' sales are down.  For the big three to realize any success in this loan people will have to start buying NEW cars.  For new car dealerships to stay afloat people will have to start buying NEW cars.  That is the problem.  People are losing jobs and losing homes and no one feels secure.  That security that comes along with buying (on credit mostly) is what will keep the assembly line worker at GM employed and nothing else.

With or without loan, the US auto industry is pretty much screwed without the help of the consumer.

donna, look at gm's 2007 form 10-k (on file with the SEC).

1 - officer's and director's pay (top management, 77 employees) account for less than 1/2 of 1% of the price of a $25k car

2 - line personnel (ie, uaw members) wages and benefits account for approx 46% of the price of the same $25k car

3 - uaw members make approx $60/hr, without benefits. that puts them in the top 5% of all income earners in this country, by IRS guidelines.  top 5% begins at $82,450/yr. (IRS Statistics of Income Bulletin).

outside counsel and the auditors have to sign off on this filing (25 years/$1.5 million is a lot of time and cash for perjury on these forms). it's a good bet that extreme care goes into preparing it.

william, first, jobs are offshored not because of wages. look at any survey done of companies that move jobs overseas and that isn't in the top 5 reasons. second, what most of these foreign workers earn is far above the norm for their country. you can't compare what we earn in this country vs what a korean or indian earn because standards of living and tax structure are completely different.

Ken we are a third world economy.  But we cannot afford to keep the big 3 but we also cannot let them go either.  They are just about the only manufacturing we have left in this country since Clinton signed the NAFTA back in the '92. We have lost the steel companies, clothing, shoes, and a number paper mills, all too foreign countries.  If we are not real carful there could some others items that will be lost to foreign workers.

The fact of the matter is that "government" got involved to help out banks in which as you can see does not work in the past...and will not work for today.

Until we get rid of the old executives with old systems...it will continue to drain society.

As far as the Big 3 going bankrupt?  Until consumer confidence is where it should be...the money to the Big 3 will only be a temporary fix!  It is a thing called supply and demand in which I believe we have too much supply anyhow.  We continue to manufacture things for the people to go into debt to purchase rather than purchasing for "need". 

Our problem is much bigger than a few companies going into bankruptcy.  One thing for sure we do have our freedom here in the United States...which will be the one and only that I will FIGHT for!  Everything else is gravy however it is to go.

the auto industry gave itself a hard time..the UAW is got people who r laid off getting full wages for 2 yrs..fagetabtthe big3..we need UAW wages to be capped at $10/hr..and we need $6500 cars that get 65mpg..

You can't just blame UAW...they cut a deal with a company and got the deal.  The company itself needs to adjust accordingly.

Heck...if you worried about how much one gets paid at the automakers... think about what our government is being paid, along with their benefits!  That is more attractive!

Jeff,

You've hit the nail on the head about the price of cars. Every now and again I'll see a model that looks/sounds good for my family needs. I check the price, and it's friggin 40-grand!

Some of that price is all the stupid frills. Most of which do not make the car more efficient or durable. A car is needed to go from point A to point B. Make more basic models and let the consumer add on whatever suits his fancy later.

What really pisses me off is that none of the rich corrupt a-holes is washington are complaining about how the Wal-Street bankers are getting to their meetings (here is 700 billion, do what you want).  No one is complaining at all how they are screwing us on a daily basis.

My retirement account is being drained everyday by these jerks, and then they tell me that I can't get my own money out of their accounts without paying substantial penalties, so I have to sit still and watch the money go down the toilet.

release my money and let me put it where it will serve my needs, they are all theives, tell me I'm wrong.  And to hell with all of you import loving liberals.  Do you know what a replacement battery for your import hybrid is going to cost you,  Do you even know what materials are in the batteries, how are you going to dispose of them.

I agree, say bye-bye to the unions and rebuild the companies with people that will be damned glad to work for half the salary with reasonable health benefits.

If we bailout the auto makers and place more mandates on production we will do nothing more than delay the imminent death.  will the congress in their wisdom mandate a few limos for them and a lot of spartan peoples vehicles for the rest of us.  They can sweeten the deal with a tax incentive and we cal all merrily roll on to work in our poopy little cars.  Won't family trips be nice driving through the country with fields of inefficient windmills either broken or idle. Maybe Chevy can come up with a new peoples car called the congressional or the Pelosi.  Think of the possibilities new speaker new model, maybe next we can have the Franks and drive our own Oscar Meyer wiener mobile.

Jeff, you are more than an idiot.  Where do you think this 6,500 car is going to come from??  The asian cars cost more than 3 times that amount.  Have you any idea at all what you are talking about??

Barb... you are so right!  No one hesitated to give Wall St. bailout money... Look what AIG did with theirs... it makes me sick.  Our government steals from the poor to give to the rich... it is sickening!

billt 359761 -  You are 100% right. I'm in the same boat. Retired and have seen my retirement portfolio lose 40%+ of its value in the last 90 days. At this rate it will all be gone shortly. I like millions of other retirees or nearing retired people don't have 10-15 or 20 years for our savings to recover.  What we are losing now in our retirement funds cannot be regained. If one or more of the automakers goes belly up then everyone's investments will disappear. The Dow at 6,5,4,or maybe even 3,000 very possible if the auto makers fail. I don't even own any auto company stock but what happens to them effects every stock out there. We are already in enough financial trouble. Give them the damn money to keep the market for getting worse. Didn't seem to be any problem bailing out AIG or coming up with $700 BILLION for the financial guys. Don't let you anger and misunderstanding drive us into a real depression. Do it sensibly but bail them out NOW!!!

Your services will be needed by another company that rises out of the ashes of the Big 3 and the final blow to the UAW as we know it today.  What does the President and all the vice Presidents of the UAW make......are they willing to work for a dollar a year.....NOT....................

Yes, millions will be affected, those looking for work will find it out there.  They just need to look, if that means take a little less then 40 or 50 dollars an hour then so be it.  Time for them to feel the pain the rest of America has been feeling. 

Move all the car companies to the south where they actually produce a better product for less.............Union free.

Barb. I feel bad for folks like you, in a position to lose their jobs because the big 3 screwed up and sh** rolls downhill.  See, this is what makes me SO nuts about the big 3 whining and wanting money.  The CEOs have abused their positions (too much $, private this and that, which was condoned by the company), giving in to all the UAW's ridiculous demands over the years.  But, before all this, there was no leverage for UAW to back down; if they did not get what they demanded, they went on strike.  Who woulda thunk it.. they would be in such trouble now. 

My dad was always a Ford man... all his vehicles.  and, for years they were such junk, Fix Or Repair Daily was the motto.  Worker X did 1 thing, not 2, folks goofed around, etc., and none could be fired lest the union get involved. It happened with the steel industry... now, there is no more US Steel, Jones & Laughlin, Bethlehem, etc.  The union killed it off and business went to Japan.  Why? Far better price and quality. 

   Because the lemming are easily led and rush to blame Unions instead of the crooks that ruined credit flow. As an example Toyota and Ford dropped 34% in the last quarter sales. Toyota has no union and pays their workers about 2 bucks an hour less than the UAW. Creative accounting which is added to the wholesale cost of the cars we buy including union wages and benefits so the companies are recovering all of this. If they break the unions and do not have to pay out the pensions and healthcare they have a huge amount of money coming in they do not have to pay out. If they bail them out and they will there should be a stipulation that any cost savings they get from union busting gets passed on to consumers.

mike, the companies 'cut the deal' as you say, in large part because of several powerful congressmen and senators (dingell, levin) twisted arms behind the scenes. they always figured that congress would be there to as a safety net. then there was a sympathetic press who only reported on how things impacted the next paycheck of the line worker, not the implications of the contracts 5 or 10 years hence.

I agree!  The unions must go down.  Nothing will turn around the big 3 unless we bust up the unions.  The unions are what is wrong with this country.  I teach at union plants all the time and nothing ever happens to someone in the union who fails the course 4 times in a row at some places.

Please stick to facts not myths. How did the $70 per hour myth grow roots? Conservative analysts have chosen to divide the automakers' total personnel expenses by the number of active workers. This means that $70 per hour statistic includes all pensions and benefits being paid to retirees - in other words, other people.

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/

Dude you rock

William Bednarz

The lightest turd, filled with hot gas, will always rise to the top.

Many people would not buy from them regardless of whether they are whining or not.  There are several reasons why they are in this position today.

1.  They do not produce quality products.  The majority of American made cars are bright shiny pieces of junk.  They break down and then cost a fortune to repair.

2.  These cars can not compete against the foreign cars that are much more efficient and require less maintenance

3.  These expensive pieces of junk cost twice as much as the more durable foreign models.

4.  The executives of these companies have not been watching their bottom line for so long that they've allowed the situation to get beyond repair. If they'd started to look at things even five years ago and had begun to make concessions then, they would not be where they are today.

5.  The union has basically taken over the position of telling the company what it's workers will be paid.  Initially the union was a good idea, but it has grown far too large and been given too much power.  Getting paid $30 an hour (before benefits) to turn a bolt is beyond outrageous.

Bottom line  is that the Japanese have relied on uninformed yuppie sheep such as yourself to lead the US economy to slaughter.

All of the so called "Americans" driving Jap crap have a direct hand in breaking the back of the US economy so give yourselfs a limp-wristed hand of applause while you explain to your children why there's no GI Joe with the Kung Fu Grip under the tree & their future in this country is questionable at best. All in the name of less cabin noise & a better fit & finish. Pathetic.

Both of my Ameri-crap cars drained my bank account. I live paycheck to paycheck, I cant afford $500 here $1500 there or to be out of a car for 6 weeks while the engine is being rebuilt.  My Nissan was built right here in the good old USA by AMERICANS and will run for 250,000 miles or more and I can put my money under my mattress for retirement. This country is questionable at best because we pay morons $60 an hour to watch the robots do their work on the assembly line or put the cap on a bottle of beer and think that it's ok to pay our teachers less then $20 an hour. 

Moron. That Nisssan that was built right here by "good ol Americans"  in a Jap plant is simply a justification to ease your guilt. Get informed- for every 1 American they employ it puts 3 Americans in the unemployment line.

As for your paycheck to paycheck problem: sounds like you should have had a better life plan. I've owned 12-15 American cars with the biggest problem being a $300 hub-bearing replacement-oh & thats on my second vehicle- a 94 olds with 160,000 miles that runs like new. Maybe someone needs to introduce you to a maintenance schedule.

The last time I looked ALL Japanes dealerships have service departments- could that be because their vehicles break down?????? Not to mention their hourly rates & parts being a minimum of 20% more than American shops. Pat yourself on the back though your children will probly be very happy sharing a bowl of rice per day.

I'm a truck person, so I really don't get this idea that foreign is better thing.  A Nissan Titan gets like 10mpg and can not tow over 8,900lbs.  Same for a Toyota Tundra.  My F-250 gets 16mpg and can tow 12,500lbs.  It is a diesel, so I'm not making a straight comparison, but that is all Nissan & Toyota has to offer. 

The Titan and the Tundra are dismissable.  F150s beat the c**p out of them in safety tests...the Tundra's bed nearly twisted off its rails over rough soil, a railroad track, and on a rough uphill climb. Yes, the Tundra can get up to speed quite fast, and stop quickly, but I would NEVER put my, or my kid's, buns in one!!  Very UNSAFE.  Nice looking, but crappola.

But I digress.....Ch 11 for all 3, and Chrylser gets NOTHING from us!

Because GM sells more cars and they sell the larger vehichles Americans wanted. When people like the UAW workers lose their good paying jobs and cannot get credit because the banks stole all the money cars do not sell. If the Auto industry fails 2.5 million American jobs go down the tubes and the ones fighting this because they are Union busters will have cars sitting on their lots also just as Toyota has. The problem is with available capital which was supposed to be funneled into the banks to loosen the money flow. Paulson dropped the ball.

I have never owned or wanted a foreign car. The car I drive is a 92 Olds that I bought brand new and has only had regular maintenence since I owned it. I have two ther later model cars and they run just as well. My son bought two toyotas junked the first one and traded the second one because f high maintenece costs and parts problems. The Japanese ruined our steel industry by susidizing steel production in their country and now the steel mills are gone. Next they did the same thing with garments and North and South Caolina lost all their production of garments.Now foreign governments who charge tarrifs to keep our products out are taking a shot at the last big industry here in America and the looney tunes who simply cannot read or research are grabbing the right wing lie that it is all the unions fault and running with it like the lemmings that they are.

There was a time when Americans built things to last.  My F-3 (yes, F-3) cranks right up and drives fine.  I have no idea how many miles are on the the 49 but I learned to drive in it over 40 years ago.

I don't think there's too many vehicles made recently that can last more than seven or eight years, let alone 60 years.  (I do admit the stake bed is getting sort of dry-rotted but everything else is pretty much original.)

The american car industry went onto a planned obsolescence program sometime in the 50's or 60's.  As a result, they are now going obsolete.  Too bad, they had the money and opportunity to change their business model years ago, now it's just too late.

As to those who argue that we should bail out the car industry because we bailed out the financial industry...that bailout was a result of our traitorous politicians ignoring the millions of outraged taxpayers who demanded, uncategorically, "NO BAIL OUT!".  That the bail out was approved over the strident objections simply means we now have an officially fascist government.

A free market means simply that a business has the opportunity to succeed or fail, without government interference.  Our car industry is a failure due to multiple causes and, under the darwinian rules of a free market, should die off.  Economically scarce resources (metals, labor, money, time, etc.) are being wasted in support of a failure.

A similar thing can be said of our current government.  Best proposal is to waste a lot of metallic resources in eliminating it.

mad max,

how do you get to the conclusion that 1 American at a foreign nameplate puts 3 Americans out of work? if true, it doesn't say much about the productivity of uaw members, does it now?  the foreign nameplates - all 5 at present - have US based supply chains for most of their parts, but then even the big 3 import some of their parts.

Unions had their day back in the early part of the 1900s. Today, they are no less corrupt than the employers and big businesses that forced the hand of workers to create unions.

Bankruptcy for the Big 3 is a good thing for all of us. Think about what will happen when the government gives the lifeline to the Big 3, unions will continue to exist, and by virtue of their existence, their corrupt ways will continue.

I read comments that condemns anyone who stands against the Big 3, something about outsourcing and jobs being shipped overseas. Big businesses take advantage of outsourcing and will do so at their whim to make money and avoid taxes; government allows businesses to operate outside the US for a kick back, i.e., lobby money, so who is to blame, businesses for trying to make a buck and avoid ridiculous taxes or government for creating unnecessary tax laws to legally extort businesses?

Unions had their day back in the early part of the 1900s. Today, they are no less corrupt than the employers and big businesses that forced the hand of workers to create unions.

Bankruptcy for the Big 3 is a good thing for all of us. Think about what will happen when the government gives the lifeline to the Big 3, unions will continue to exist, and by virtue of their existence, their corrupt ways will continue.

I read comments that condemns anyone who stands against the Big 3, something about outsourcing and jobs being shipped overseas. Big businesses take advantage of outsourcing and will do so at their whim to make money and avoid taxes; government allows businesses to operate outside the US for a kick back, i.e., lobby money, so who is to blame, businesses for trying to make a buck and avoid ridiculous taxes or government for creating unnecessary tax laws to legally extort businesses?

And in post WWII it was the Americans that showed them how to build cars

correct, un common sense, I've read some books about the japanese marketing plans which are 5, 10 or even longer plans to be profitable.

Americans (me included) seem to want instant gratification. That's why CEOs of auto, and mortgage companies and other businesses have these bonus clauses in their salary schedule. It's all about making as much profit THIS year or even THIS quarter. No long term planning.

"And in post WWII it was the Americans that showed them how to build cars"

 Yes and the Japanese learned the lesson very well.  Maybe the US automakers could now learn from their former students how to do their jobs better?

Just keep sending your money to Japan, Oh thats right they are made in the U.S., idiots, the money is going to Japan.  The union thugs have destroyed the American cars (not the worker, the unions). I don't believe the worker had a choice whether to join the union or not (now that's American, isn't it?).

No, the money stays here. They built their companies here on American soil as American companies using American dollars because it is more profitable to do so ($ vs Yen), Employing American workers, earning, and paying American taxes.

and sending their PROFITS back to Japan.  Also, they import MORE cars to America than they sell here. 

Use the trade deficit as a gauge and you will see that our country has been sold out.  The foreign countries limit the amount of items that can be sold in that country or put tariffs on it that make it virtually impossible for an American company to make a profit in that country.

You want a gauge check the trade deficit.  It has been lopsided for years due to the foreign countries complaint that they can not compete with American companies and their size and volumes.

So our illustrious govenment bodies of wisdom changed the rules for the foreign companies to do business here.  Hence they sold us out to line their own pockets.

The money will follow

Wait for it.

I have a 2005 Ford Explorer.  The transmission needed replaced at 43,000 miles.  The bracket that holds the sun visor broke which will set me back a minimum of $150 depending on the model, my DVD player is not working and now I am just waiting to see what is next.  I have 47,000 miles on the vehicle and yes I did call Ford Customer Service, sent letters with no resolution.  Not as much as a free oil change in exchange for my troubles.  I signed up with a web-site that tracks these issues from other Explorer owners and receive emails daily.  Now do you think I want to purchase another Ford?

Will a bailout facilitate the sales of enough automobiles when retail sales across the board are down?  Consumers are spending less money because for many workers who aren't in a union, there are no pay raises.  Companies are restructuring jobs so either you take a pay cut, or receive a lay-off.  I was fortunate to receive 9 weeks pay and benefits when I received my layoff last June from a major computer manufacture.  Many workers don’t get that much.  Thank God I found another job but I have to scale back on spending and save a much as possible so that I am able to put my Ford Explorer in the shop for the next major repair. 

Until the economy improves, a bailout for the automobile industry is a band-aid on the problem.  Then what, another bailout request in 6 months to a year?  Most people are trying to keep a roof over their head, clothe and feed their families, and pray no one gets sick.  A $30,000+ automobile just isn’t in the budget for many.

Do any of you really think that a normal person will buy the crappier car just because it is supposedly made in the USA?  Really?  I know I will want the best I can get for my money, no matter who makes it.  That is just common sense and free market capitalism.  The best survive, the weak fail...

If the big three can't make or prove that they make a better product to the consumer then their is no hope period. Bailout or no bailout.

sending their PROFITS back to Japan. 

the same way American owned companies in foreign countries send theirs back to the US.

Also, they import MORE cars to America than they sell here

how do you get there?

to back up wild weasel, It's a global economy, folks.

You say You dont want jobs outsourced to other countries, however that money comes back home to domestic owned companies.

You say you don't want foreign companies over here, employing American workers, because you say those profits go back overseas. You can't have it both ways, unless you want to go into a strict protectionism mode and don't want to participate in the foreign markets at all.

We'd have a LONG way to go and it would take a LONG time to get there in several sectors of the economy, electronics for one, and cost of almost all products would go up.

Make yourself one of those "boy pissing" stickers for your "chevy truck" and put "GM" as the target.

Why did congress bailout Wall Street and AIG? Let business work itself out right?

Hmmmmm, lets see now, Congress gave mega banks and Wall Street priority quite possibly because the rule is they don't bite the hand that feeds them. The American Bankers Association  apparently has a lot of hungry mouths to feed in Washington and they do it effectively and they expect to be repaid with generousity galore at the expense of taxpayers. 

 Don't get me wrong, I will only by Chevy trucks.  I don't think that Ford or Chrysler build quality trucks.

Absolute bullsh*t. Chevy and Dodge build pretty trucks, but Ford builds work trucks. Fords are more dependable and when they do break, they are less expensive to fix than Chevys and Dodges. If you want a pretty truck as your personal vehicle, buy a Chevy. If you want a truck you can work to death and won't let you down go with the Ford.

The foreign automakers get money from the States that they are located in. Even they are getting money so it is NOT a level playing field.

Of course they did, because they safely have millions of dollars banked for this "rainy day". I am sure none of them are hurting during this time of tightening their wallets.

mike, every state and municipality plays the economic incentive game. it's upfront and for a certain time frame only.  those incentives die after a while.

We can all thank our Wonderful Congress that there was no accountability asked of the banks that were bailed out. I agree something is amiss in that deal, as most of the taxpayers said No Bailout to Banks and our Congress hurried it through anyway.

We need to have a recall of some, if not all of our Congress reps and senators.

Because all of the corrupt politicians have their money in the financial sector.  The financial sector donates an obscene amount of money to get their inside boys elected.

Trusty-

I agree on the recall idea.  But I think we should do it in person, since phoning reps did NOTHING and our "just say no" votes were ignored...maybe a little (or massive) face-to-face with the biz-as-usual morons in DC would do the trick?

There are certainly enough PO'd people on this, and many other, discussion boards....

I'm not sure quite what the deal was with original 700 billion. Congress acted like bill had to be passed asap, but now only about $250 million has been given out. Rest in kind of an "escrow" acct. Supposedly that's where money for auto makers would actually come from. It's already approved for "economic bailout", but since it originally was designated for financial sector, they apparently need another vote to change where it goes.

I think all the phone calls and flack politicians heard about the 700 billion did make them gunshy. I think many want to approve to satisfy union and Big 3 (all of which are also big contributors), but nobody wants to be the one to put their name on the bill. We'll see waht happens.

I say the UAW has a whole truck load of money, let them bail out the auto companies, they can take a loan from the union, of course Guido and Knuckles would charge them about 75 percent interest.

Well put!

This is right on,a bailout is only temporary. Let them declare bankruptcy if that is inevitable. They should have been building economical vehicles year's ago,if they can't then they will surely fail. Restructure now and quit throwing taxpayer's money around.

Cut the gas guzzlers out and build good fuel efficient, hybrid and hydrogen powered

cars and trucks but start doing it now. USA can be #1 again you only have to believe

and buy American. It doesn't help to go around blaming one another,eventually it depends on you to fix the problem,it can be done,there is roughly 25 million jobs at stake. Get on the right  track and start producing again with the whole country working together.

Your'e right Tim, we did get the shaft again, all of corporate America willfully neglected to guide their companies the right way to make a profit, instead they made themselves filthy rich and now they want the average Joe to bail them out and for what? If you met the bastard on the street he would think he's better than you, SO I SAY LET THEM FALL AND REMEMBER WHERE THEY CAME FROM NOT USING THE SWEAT OF OUR BROW TO KEEP THEM ON A THRONE! Maybe they will restructure the company and out the union pigs so they can make a better product of what we need. I had to have a customers car taken to the GM cadillac dealership for an inspection sticker, so I looked at the prices on the Escalades and was blown away with a price of 99,000 on a f**king car what the hell are they thinking. There has been a lot of companies that have tried to make it on catering to the rich but they need to remember that there are more working Joes than rich in America.

Thank you!!!

tim and md,

remember that most of the subprime mortgage meltdown was legislative and regulatory in it's origin. when the government directs you to act in a certain way either by law, or by withholding approval to conduct normal business, you modify your business model to accomodate those rules.

the auto industry - they and the uaw got what they deserved.

I love America but I choose not to purchase American made vehicles. I want a car that will last and hold it's value. The depreciation on American vehicles is horrible. All of my vehicles are Honda.

You ask why people want to come here? It has become the land of handouts thats why.

I have owned GM cars my entire life - 55 years and counting - First car 1973 had 130,00+ when I sold it.  None of my vehicles have EVER had any major issues and ALL have had at least 120,000 miles on them when I sold or traded them. 

I currently drive a 1992 Astro conversion van 287,215 miles and counting - put a battery in it last week.  First repair I have had to make in 3 years (new brakes in 2005). 

My husband drives a 1999 Ford F-150 PU - inherited from his father.  Put brakes on it and a new starter this week 197,294 miles.

Piece of crap - I'd like two more just like these please

Thank you Seen it before!!

To Seen it before:

The Big Three have been making poor products since the 1960s.  I was unhappy with their efforts in the early 1970s and in 1980 gave up and bought a Toyota.  It was no better than a Ford or GM product.

It is of interest to me that The Big Three would be done in by  a combination of $150.00 a barrel petrol, a financial meltdown and a credit freeze.  I feel that industries world wide are experiencing the same problems.  A year from now, foreign automobile manufacturers maybe in Washington asking for a handout.

As to why everyone elsewhere want to come to the United States? We welcome new comers with open arms. They come because of false advertising; "The streets of America are paved with Gold,"   "America is the land of milk and honey." Moreover, they come to America to get rich quick! We need new comers  from abroad to raise the Country's collective IQ.

Why waste time and money on fossil fuels?  They are a dead end.  The sooner we develop sustainable alternatives the better off we will all be.

was that a pun are were you just lucky?

Gas guzzling SUV's you say. Let's see.....Toyota's V8-Tundra ; V8-Suburban Size Sequoia; Highlander; minivans....Nissan's V8 Titan & Armada.....Honda's Ridgeline. Nobody ever mentions those. The market DEMANDED trucks and SUV's and anybody with any business sense would make what the market wanted. Duh. Even your darling Japanese got on board. God Himself couldn't have predicted gas prices jumping to $4.00+ a gallon in a matter of months. That's what started all this mess. Nobody even looked at a Prius until that happened and Honda even quit making their version. The Big 3 DO make excellent fuel efficient vehicles, but the press never talks about them.

BTW.....ALL car sales are down over 31% (ave.) including your precious Japanese vehicles. Consumer confidence is gone. Not because of the cars.....but because of Wall St.

ricku, I agree with you the fuel prices was the start of this mess, and now gas is 1.59 in some areas I think somebody needs jail time for the robberies of the American people, it sounded like the government had a role to play in it. The whole system is corrupt and change does not come with bailing out corrupt companies, so where the hell is the change. Oh thats right we have a biracial president now! whats he doing to stop the corruption or did he come out of left field hidden and just as corrupt as the rest of them?

When did I say anything about the Japanese? Tho they were at least able to see the writing on the wall. If anyone I would say Tesla and Tata were the new kids on the block. Yes the big 3 make many fuel effcient cars, but sell them only in the erope where gas is $6-$8 a gal. Makes wonder who their US bed fellows are. They could easily refit models they make right now for CAV or CNG. They simply choose not to. Basically doing an ostrich. Face it they only sell last centuries technology for this centuries prices. The model T got better milage than some models today. I have no clue why the asians keep coming out with V8s, that makes no sense either.

MD Virginia Obama is not the president yet or are you saying Bush is biracial

Thank you Tim.  I was with MD Virginia until he made that comment.

ricku- well said

RickU, you have an excellent answer.  Especially for the illiterate people that owned a Suburban a year ago and a Prius today.  They need to stop bashing the American automakers and realize that Ford especially has been soaring high on the reliability charts and that all American cars look 3521587218532 times better too than the Japanese too.

Does anyone else live in Michigan?  I do, and have personally seen from my uncle's white collar job-loss this summer what can happen to a struggling American industry WHILE IT IS STILL IN BUSINESS.  Just wait until one of the Big Three (yes, they still deserve that title) dies, and you will ALL be affected whether you are a school teacher, a nurse, or a Walmart cashier.

You are right, Roboman.  Just heard on the news that Dow Chemical is going to start laying off workers in part because the products they make and used by the car and haousing industries have fallen off.  I don't live in Michigan, I live on the Texas Gu;f Coast!

Niether is oil, but the powers that be for the last 30 years have been in the pockets of the oil companies as well.  Alternative energy is great I agree it should be a major contributor to the American economy.

But you need to get rid of big oil in Washington first and that is not going to happen without a revolution taking place with either R&D finding that source of sustainable energy or by going to Washington and booting out every politician.

The Big Three can't bring them over.  When they do they will get about the same mileage as the stuff they sell now.  Why?  We have environmental regulation that Europe doesn't have.  When you totally redesign the fuel system to meet our standards they will lose 20 - 25% of the European numbers.  THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IS CONGRESS.  As long as they write the laws and regulations, no matter what you do you will be wrong.  When it looks like you comply, they re-write them so you don't.

benramz2...here, here!

Now...all we need to do is get our government to start working for us and quit worrying about business's they have no idea how to run anyhow!

Any company that makes a product that is not dependable, not fuel efficient and overpriced is doomed to failure.  American cars used to be worth the money that one paid for them.  Now they are mostly junk and highly overpriced. 

It's a damned shame that those boys and girls in the UAW can't produce a well made product for all the money they are being paid, but they have gotten lazy and careless in their wealth.  The more they are given, the less they want to do.  They seem to forget what the rest of the world is like.  I guess they will be given a sharp reminder when they are the ones without jobs and struggling to pay their bills.  They will remember when their American made vehicle that they bought right off the line breaks down and they can't afford the cost of repairs.

S, they produce what the Auto companies tell them to produce.  UAW does not decide what to build or what to build it with.  Get a clue.

als, f u wnt to txt, snd 2 ur bff cuz in a blg u luk lik a fkn id10T

They said no to the banks as well.  Oops sorry our leaders dont work for the people they work for themselves.

Oh btw Honda, Yota and Nissan sales are all down about 30+%, so before you post such nonsense do a little research.

And I am for loaning any American company money to keep the jobs here as long as it is done the correct and accontible way.  Unlike the billions provided to the banks that was suppose to provide relief to those losing their homes and our infinite leaders decided to bait and switch the entire plan to line their pockets with no accountibility.

15 billion provided to an American bank that supposedly needed it, they went and purchased 7 billion in stock of a Chinese bank.  Yes that helped American civilians with jobs, homes and infrastructure.

Jerry - please re-read I did not say that the sales of Nissan, Mazda toyota and Honda were up, I said they were expanding. They are building more plants in the US to make it cheaper to sell cars here. It cost less to transport the parts and build them here than it does to ship them into this country.

Hahahaha your kidding right?  Health care is a joke in the US more expensive than any place in the world.

ex.  I had stitches and they put a gauze around it to keep it clean.  The bill came in that gauze cost $230 give me a break, so I questioned it and they came back and said you don't pay for one gauze you pay for the gauze but the application of it which took all of a minute and a half.  Socialized medicine is the answer to that next disaster that will happen along with a flat tax rate.

As for the loans ask Congress why the banks are not loaning money that is why they gave it to them to free up credit.  Oh that's right our Congress decided no bailout on the home crisis but give it to the banks with no restrictions.  Thank you Nancy Pelosi, Chris Dodd and Barney Franks.

You are quite mistaken if you think that the dealers can make money selling cars at 6-8K off.  First, they have to pay the price set by the factory.  Second, these dealers have to pay interest on those cars from the time the order leaves the factory.  When you add the initial cost and the interest paid, there is not much left, especially when you consider that a sales person has to be paid commission out of the sale.  Or did you think that the factory just places them on the lot?  Lots of people think that.

The credit crunch is killing car sales right now; the dealers cannot get loans approved because the banks will not release the money.  Also, people are afraid to buy because of the turmoil going on in Washington.

lol-752089

I really like that idea 

I think they could have produced a better car ...IF...they had only listened to the public. As in ..we want better cars, better gas mileage...etc. 30 years ago, in the 70's. They wouldn't listen.

The Big 3 wanted PROFIT. period!....GREED.

So, they kept producing the same old cars and the big SUV's. and powerful trucks. They stood on their past record and stupidly told the US, the buyers, what they should drive. Never looking to the future to even see the gas/economy failure. Never making a car that people want.

Now they are years behind all foreign car makers, and can't understand why the people  do not want their product! This failure has been years in the making, it didn't happen overnight. Buy they ignored all the signs of failure, and kept right on doing as they and the unions have always done....

Forget LOANS....Cut the salaries, file for bankruptcy,get union concessions, make a car that the people want. Can you hear us NOW????

They can produce a vehicle that gets that kind of mileage.  The big three have been in bed with Opec for so long that they have been discouraged from doing so.  It is not that they don't have the ability, it is that they choose not to use it.

The European version of the Ford Focus gets 65 mpg. However it is a diesel and diesel cars don't sell well here.

 The Gov. will not allow them to sell these in America is why. Ask the Gov. why.

If a diesel was sold here that got 65 miles per gallon deisels would sell. Wow! that would be great wouldn't it?

But here we are lucky to get 30 miles to the gallon. Why?

More than half the cars sold in Europe are now diesel. Diesel technology has leap-frogged gas technology. Why isn't available here? Because U.S. auto makers don't have it and don't want you to have it. You would be surprised at how much more choice Europeans have. Just one of many reasons I'm glad to see this arrogant, manipulative, badly-managed, over-compensated industry headed to the extinct heap where it belongs.

Air quality regulations will not allow mass production of these diesel vehicles in the US.  Ford actually has a vehicle that is sold in Europe that they can not sell here because it is a diesel engine.  Rules and regulations as well as consumer preception of diesel being a "dirty" fuel makes it impossible to market here.

Its our government that has been in bed with the oil companies not the car companies. 

The market dictated the demand for SUV's etc.. The failure they car companies made was not building a basis for smaller fuel efficeint models while America went big to cover the bet.

Can it be corrected, I believe it can, but in order to do it the current government needs to start working for the American citizen again and not the special interest groups, lobbists, PAC's etc.  They need to even the playing field and the trade deficit so American Companies become viable again and they need accurate oversight comittees that have teeth and only answer to the President and not some comittee like the Barney Franks that failed Freddie & Fannie.  It need to be definitive and until that happens things will not change.

Mike that Ford will only see these shores when it complies with EPA & state clean air acts.  By the time THAT takes place that same diesel will get maybe 45 - 50 mpg.  

We are slaves to the environmentalists, who were put in positions in the government agencies, who can't be fired, by Senators, Representatives, Presidents who got a whole lot of money from Environmentalists. 

Americans would buy diesels if they are cost effective and reliable.  Diesels are heavily used in pickups.  But you don't want to buy real bad since 2008, Goverenment regulation has taken over.  After 2010, may not even want one because even stricter laws will be ineffect further reducing efficiency and increasing operating costs.

Washington DC is the Real problem.

Another thing I understand about diesel is that refining deisel from petroleum is much cheaper, however we have such a huge demand for gasoline (a higher refined product from Diesel) that we don't produce that much diesel.

If we went to all diesel then fuel would drop even further in price.  Refactories would be smaller and less pollutant.  Modern diesel engines are tremendously cleaner than they were in the 50's, 60's , 70's and 80's.

Too bad, all the more reason these companies must fold.