Detainee was tortured, says U.S. official

The truth shall set you free. Even if the Obama administration doesn't want to pursue prosecutions, for obvious reasons, they should at least cooperate fully with a congressional investigation. That means turning over all documents to congress concerning what the Bush administration did. I hope he does it, and I suspect he will.

Like the internment camps during WWII, this is a stain on our country's history that needs to be fully accounted for. I hope and pray our soldiers don't find themselves captured by people who learned from our government. This is a terrible thing to do to our troops.

Before John McCain became the nominee, he was by far the most credible and clear voice on torture. I hope that John McCain returns to the Senate.

Having been to Guantanamo Bay many times when I was in the navy I can't help but wonder how this guy was "tortured" by being subjected to cold temperatures...  Gitmo is hot and humid year round..  What did they do - stuff him into a meat locker???? 

After reading an article yesterday om MSNBC about people being stoned to death as a methind of execution I question what a  super civilised politically correct society considers torture..  What are they doing - forcing detainees to watch old reruns of Laurence Welk and Barney all day???

Schwannomin,

You are absolutely right.  The senate should listen to Mr. McCain in regards to torture.   

Bush administration? The Congress was just as responsible.  Pelosi did on site investigations and approved the tortures. 

Torture is not good and degrading a human is not good.  One must understand though that our country was just under attack and no one knew if more attacks were coming.  Torture was used on people involved in 911 to find out if more attacks were coming.  It is easy to judge after several years and other attacks were stopped.  What if we did not use these techinques and several more attacks happened?  Would everyone be condeming the administration for lack of action?  You can't have your cake and eat it to.

Look at the below list of terrorists attacks and tell me you would rather have had these occur than putting a bra on a prisoner or waterboarding the 911 mastermind for five minutes.  Remember it was for five minutes.

Terrorist attacks Bush and the Congress stopped:

•  
  • An attempt to bomb fuel tanks at JFK airport;
  • A plot to blow up airliners bound for the East Coast;
  • A plan to destroy the tallest skyscraper in Los Angeles;
  • A plot by six al Qaeda inspired individuals to kill soldiers at Fort Dix Army Base in New Jersey;
  • A plan to attack a Chicago-area shopping mall using grenades; and
  • A plot to attack the Sears Tower in Chicago.   

I agree with smarg, but I would just say...

   It is pathetic that the bleeding heart liberals that hate President Bush would like nothing better than to let the killers of Americans set free to kill again.

Schwann and the rest of you who think Gitmo did more harm than good to U.S.A.,

   NOT knowing if any of you had any family members that died as a result of one of the 19 hijackers, but as I sit here and read these entries, it doesn't sound like it.  AND yes it does matter, because you would have a different opinion of what happened after the planes crashed and burned and killed approximately 3000 innocent people.

   Keeping in mind the above statement, YOU don't have a clue as to the horror and anguish a relative of one of those 3000 innocent people felt then nor feels today.  And I am almost positive that if it were one of your relatives, you would tell the government to do anything to find out information about another terrorist attack.  You would be praying that no more innocent people would go through what happened on 11Sept01.  I honestly believe you would be one agreeing that torture, if needed, would be okay.  Yes, yes, you can believe that you wouldn't be saying this, BUT unless you were directly affected by the tragedy, you honestly can't say what you would do or say or think.

   If an independent, non-partisan investigator came out and said, "the treatment of the detainees at Gitmo has produced credible information about more attacks on the U.S.A. and, through separate investigations, found the individuals and their plans and we have stopped attacks on the citizens of the United States of America and our allies.  If it hadn't of been for the Gitmo detainees, hundreds of thousands of people would have died."

   And look at it another way, these detainees, albeit they are not the ones who hijacked the planes, but they were accomplices to terror against the U.S.A., helped kill thousands of innocent civilians.  The people they killed or assisted in killing were not military soldiers or politicians, but regular people goind about their regular days duing their regular business.  What is the difference between the regular U. S. civilians and the "innocent Palestinian civilians" going about their regular days??  I know what you are going to say, "it is not the same thing.  The IDF are a bunch of killers of poor, innocent Palestinians!!  How dare you compare the two actions!!"  But innocent civilians are innocent civilians.  The big difference is that WE Americans do NOT hide or conceal American soldiers or weapons in populated areas.  And our American soldiers do not hide behind women and children and do not hide our munitions in schools, hospitals or religious sanctuaries.  Only COWARDS do that.

   Torture and saving lives??  If treatment of the detainees saved my mother or my children from being killed by more idiots, then I would be on my knees thanking God and I would send a thank you note to the people responsibile for getting the life saving information!!!

“We’ve sent a message to the world that the United States is not like the terrorists,” McCain said earlier as he sat next to Bush in the Oval Office. “We have no grief for them, but what we are is a nation that upholds values and standards of behavior and treatment of all people, no matter how evil or bad they are."

-  2005 when John McCain championed a bill to ban torture.

He was right then and, hopefully, will be right when he returns to the Senate. I wonder if the neo-cons will call him a traitor. We need a full accounting of what the Bush administration ordered and condoned led by a congressional investigation. Anything less is a cover-up that will lead to more leaks, both true and otherwise. I simply want to know what we did and if it was illegal.

Torture, this is no worse than a college pledgeing. Where is the world outrage over the rape and REAL torture the American serviceman has suffered trying to drag third world nations out of the dark ages.  

This is my thoughts on the terrorist prisoners that we've captured...  Who cares if they were made to be nude or put in very colod temps.  At least we aren't covering our cowardly heads and video taping us cutting their heads off for all of their family and friends to see on the internet.  I really do not feel sorry for them at all.  I lived in New York on 9/11, I lost a friend in the North Tower.  And if a few of our service men and women want to torture them a little, I say so be it.  Did they think or worry about what killing thousands of innocent men, women and children would do to us?  No they did not.  They planned this attack for years and pulled it off when the Clinton Administration could have stopped it.  They had the mastermind @!$%# in their sights and did not pull the trigger.  Everyone blames the Bush administration for everything, but in fact, it was the Democrats who procrastinated and let 9/11 happen.  I don't think that prison should be shut down.  Those terrorists deserve to have to stay there for the rest of their lives.  In fact, I feel we should just kill them all, why should they have a trial?   They didn't give the over 3000 people they killed on 9/11 a trial.  So why should we care about them?

People say all the time that if we get information by "torture" then how can we complain when our own get tortured. The difference is we make terrorist very uncomfortable to get information they on the other hand cut our people'd heads of on camera. Each and everyone of these terrorist would torture, kill or do what ever they could to futher there cause, and I believe we should do what ever it takes to stop them. I for one are very greatful that there are people who are willing to do what ever it takes to keep you and me just alittle bit safer.

Where in this article did you find the truth? It seems more like CYA. To state that he had no association with terrorists is like saying that Senator Obama never dealt in "pay to play". Our Country is better than an a backseat driver and I believe you are doing a disservice by promoting these falsehoods.

Remember that there is a reason why our great Country has not been attacked in 7 years, not due to wild allegations of torture, but rather as a result of our sheer will and determination to keep the American spirit alive.

This country made it through WWII, Korea, Vietnam and the first Gulf War without having to torture people. Thanks to the Bush Administration, this country is no now better than the third-world torturers that we have so often condemned. Thanks, Bush, for sending this country right into the toilet.

You're full of it and I don't mean intelligence. From 1995 to 2006 both branches of Congress were republican. From the moment that Bush entered office till 2006 when Democrats reagined majority status in Congress Bush got evrything he wanted. Everything. Anything.

If any of you have problems with thinking waterboarding or being subjected o intense cold while stark naked is -not- torture then you need to try it. If it puts someone in the hospital with 35 heartbeats a minute it's frigging torture.

We have no moral ground to stand on here. That lying sack of treasonous excretment squatting the the Oval office says on one hand we don't torture while he's pushing waterboarding.

America doesn't resort to the inhumane methods of the people we are at odds with. It threatens our service people when they're already in enough danger through the lies of this Nazi administration. It makes us the exactly the same as they are. Inhumane. Cruel. Immoral. War criminals. Period.

If you have trouble understanding the word 'torture' get somone to read you the definition out of any frigging dictionary you want and explain the words to you with over one syllable

That's torture?  Very uncomfortable and embarrassing maybe.  And with the information given, it's obvious he was being closely monitored.  As for Schwannomen that commented that he hopes and prays that our enemies have not learned from our government.  Since the beginning of WWII, captured Americans have, almost without exception, been treated with a brutality that would have them pleading for the treatment this particular pond scum was given.  Trust me, our enemies decision to torture or not never has been and never will be determined by this.  Only someone who has never looked over the edge, or a idiot, would think otherwise.  Let's see, we have mutilation, electric shock, broken bones, 24hr a day blindfolds, etc., and that guaranteed conversation starter, decapitation, on the one hand.  On the other hand we have a man from a woman debasing culture standing naked in full view of a woman in a cold room with his hangy downies exposed, although greatly 'minimized' by the low temperatures.  Gee, I just don't know which I'd prefer, but I'm thinkin' Bob and the Boys are going to have to fend for themselves.

schwannomin

"I hope and pray our soldiers don't find themselves captured by people who learned from our government."

Not to worry. They have their own technique. It's called beheading with a dull knife.

It is a sad day when people on this post are supporting what we are always so outraged about by other countries.  Americans usually see this kind of treatment as backward and third world.  We have always been seen as a beacon of humanity.  We deserve the reputation we have garnered under this administation.  No wonder our President looked beleagered and ashamed at his press conference the other morning, he should be.

Not to worry. They have their own technique. It's called beheading with a dull knife.

So in our efforts to fight the bad guys, we become them. I have to say I stand with John McCain on this one.

“We’ve sent a message to the world that the United States is not like the terrorists,” McCain said earlier as he sat next to Bush in the Oval Office. “We have no grief for them, but what we are is a nation that upholds values and standards of behavior and treatment of all people, no matter how evil or bad they are."

- John McCain, 2005

He actually knows what it's like to be tortured.

Karma - you are so wrong. We do not torture. We interrogate a person for information. What if this scumbag was asking for it? He could have been insulting the people who were questioning him to the point that I wouldn't mind if they beheaded him. I have no sympathy for a terrorist. They do not fight a conventional way and we do not have to treat them a conventional way. They hide behind masks as they behead Americans and we should be nice and treat them with respect? The lady who called this torture even said she decided to call it torture only because his health was affected. Why don't we behead him. That will take care of his cold.

Zoo,

Americans treat prisoners according to "American" standards. How can we claim the moral high ground and condone torture at the same time ?

I don't care what they did with this piece of crap. I have not forgotten the fireman killed on 9/11. Or the children of these brave souls, who will never get to spend thanksgiving or a graduation with their parent. Or the Port Authority police, who everyday put themselves at rick for us. Or even the workers in the WTC, who were just going to work on a beautiful fall day. Yes some of us have a short memory. OK now you will say, "well that doesn't mean torture is OK". Bullcrap, I don't care what happens to these ruthless killers. 

That's brilliant. Wave your flag, thump your Bible, and pretend the United States is above the laws of the Geneva Convention, the principles we agreed to. Believe Dick Cheney when he circumvents the laws by redefining what a POW is. Put any morals you may have in the garbage. And redefine "torture".

You guys take the cake. You have no problem with the United States torturing people, because...well, we're the United States. And we do torture: Cheney has admitted to waterboarding, which is defined as torture by the Geneva Convention, hence we do torture, and we -- the current U.S. administration -- think it's OK because we have redefined who we can torture. There seems to be a groundswell of movement toward prosecuting, or at least investigating, our government at the highest level for condoning torture. And we should prosecute, because no matter what Bush and Cheney think, the U.S. is not above the law, especially laws (as in the Geneva Convention) that we signed and agreed to!

So let's become them.  Go live with them.  They didn't say he had a cold ....he was cold.  Who are you people?

With all the people here rooting for the torture of another human being, I wonder if you knew the guy was innocent would you think the same way? 

We aren't a communist fascist country, torture no matter what the degree, doesn't work because the person being harmed will lie to stop the torture and humiliation.  Are we so blood thirsty for revenge we don't care who suffers?

Obviously if our justice system dismissed the case, the beatings and humiliation was bad enough to warrant it so.  But I guess this is typical of some americans, if a person doesn't look or talk like you then they should be treated less than human, innocent or not.  

If he is guilty give him the appropriate punishment, but assuming guilt of someone will lead us exactly where the search of WMDs led us.  Nowhere.

Well said ohio gal.

Some people try to give these guys equal treatment and treat them as they would want to be treated. The only problem with that is these ppl don't care. They have no value on human life. They will cut your head off, just the same as look at you. To them these acts are part of their everyday life. They are only torture to Americans, who expect better and know better. But to fight criminals, sometimes you have to stoop to their level to get the information. I agree with several previous posters. If it saved 1 life, I wouldn't give a crap if he had to stand naked, with a bra and underwear on his head - this no more than hazing in college!

My husband and another friend worked at the Pentagon on 9/11. I thank God that both of them survived - unhurt. But both lost ppl that they knew. These were/are INNOCENT ppl. They did nothing but work at this place and they were KILLED for nothing but ppl who HATE AMERICA. And you want to tell me that this piece of "S" deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. He deserves - SQUAT!! because that is what they show to Americans! You cannot treat them the same, they do not think the same as we do. All they know is hate.

Screw "moral high ground". These type of ppl aren't going to treat American prisoner any different if we take the MORAL HIGH GROUND! Good for you Liberal tree hugger, but we have a war to fight against ppl who hate us, just because. AND by the way, they hated us BEFORE any kind of torture happened to these poor saps. So don't blame the torture on ppl viewing America the way they do. It is called Jealousy. We have Freedoms that they only wish about. We allow Freedoms to ppl that they would spit on.

The United States of America is a damn good country. We help other countries more than any other nation on earth. Since when do we have to set the moral agenda when dealing with terrorists? Why can't we say " you kill us we kill you".

This country is being ruined with feel good thinking.

Toture! . . Touture?,  I've seen fraternaty hazing worse than that.  Sleep dep, cold,  is that all it takes to be a pledge at Gamma Tau Mu Omega (GTMO).  Get over it, think about all the chicks and keggers.  Just get through the hazing and you home free. 

ohiogal:

That's exactly right. The Bush administration has made it virtually impossible to try these detainees in court due to the coersive tactics used to obtain information. Is a confession still a confession when the guy has been held in sub-zero temps for 3 days? How about if he's been shackled to the floor and threatened with a dog? Is a confession still a confession after we've dumped water up his nose for a few hours? Even the military prosecutors are quitting! I want to see Khalid Sheik Mohammed punished for crimes as much as the next guy, but he has to at least see trial for his crimes. And now most trials are made impossible because of rampant torture. Torture implemented by the CIA, that the military was reluctant to perform, and in which the FBI actually refused to participate!

One more mulligan for Captain Dubya Mulligan.

Am I the only one that finds this laughable?  I agree with PerryJ that humans should not be tortured, but this article presumes that this terrorist is a human, when in my opinion, he is nothing more than a suicidal cockroach that wishes he could give up his "so called torture" for a fiery explosive death.  He gave up his human rights the moment he decided to be a jihadist.  Go read the Hadith and the Koran and you may come to the inevitable realization that these "people" wish death and destruction upon infidels.  If you need hints on how we should deal with islamic terrorists to extract information (terrorists mind you, not actual military members), might I remind you that the red is positive and the black is negative. 

Sub zero temps for 3 days? He's done talking. Time to just bury the guy. Pretend we never saw him.

Perry J, Zoo Crew, Debra and assorted wannabe Torquemadas

Torture does not work and is immoral and stupid people will say anything if they think you might stop. People have confessed to being Satan,to killing people through witchcraft to knowing about a plot to fly a plane into the Bank Tower in LA. On the practical side if you torture others you are setting your own soldiers up to be tortured and the validity of all the information they give is in doubt. It becomes impossible to try them anywhere because you have violated US and international law and your only recourse is to hold them forever without trial or kill them. Even Stalin had show trials. Bringing ourselves to the level of Idi Amin, Himmler, Pol Pot or Pinochet, this is what George Bush has done to our nation. Parsing torture  is the act of cowards if waterboarding is OK, how about electrodes to the gonads, finger breaking, starvation, dehydration, sensory deprivation, exposure, waterboarding ones son, daughter, wife or mother, rattle snakes in a darkened room all are probably non lethal just disgusting. If you endorse torture you are no better than the man or woman who may have committed a crime, and are not worth the loss of our nations moral standing.

As to plots, Gitmo and terrorists the plots listed by Perry J have either been discredited or were never beyond a nebulous planning stage or were not plots at all being planned by a single individual with no weapons or ability to carry it out.

#1 JFK plot plotted by a homeless man US citizen Russel Defritas drug addict Abdel Nur and two guys from Trinidad Tobago who went home, they planned to figure out how to set off an explosive on a pipeline carrying jet fuel in the hopes that it would go a couple of miles through the pipeline to the airport or blow up Queens. No experts think it had a chance in hell and they had no money or material. No connection to international terrorism

#2 Blowing up US bound airplanes had nothing to do with US intell. it was a British Operation bringing in 24 suspects all found not guilty or released.

#3 LA Tower plot; No evidence it ever existed other than in someones mind it was revealed along with a lot of other crap under CIA interrogation of a suspect. Can you spell TORTURE. No operational evidence of a plots existence.

#4 Fort Dix 6

Three idiot brothers who worked as roofers with an Albanian who owned guns known for disorderly conduct and DUIs in Cherry Hill a cab driving seven eleven clerk and a guy who worked in his dads pizzeria. These morons drove up to the Poconos fired their guns off at a US govenment shooting range videoed themselves and took it to a Circuit City in NJ so they could watch themselves  and a clerk called the FBI. Of all the plots they probably had more real intent than the rest but had no logistical support , no actual plan and certainly no AlQuedda connections. They are the F Troop of terrorism and were not found out by Homeland Security or the FBI they were turned in by a Circuit City clerk.

#5 Hand grenade attack; No plot, he is a single terrorist wannabe with no weapons or money informed on to FBI who paid informants $100,000.00. Derrick Shareef is a US citizen and confirmed serial threatener if such a thing exists had threatened synagouges, Federal and municipal buildings as well as the mall and had absolutely no connection to any terrorist group. A potentially dangerous guy who liked to talk big and had never even been known to have a weapon. Will get what he deseves and was certainly not part of any organized terrorist group was caught by FBI not any of the counter terrorism groups. Nothing to do with enhanced protections.

#6 Ganga smoking idiots no money , no plans, no connection to terrorists foreign or domestic. One found not guilty five released due to mistrial twice. You can find reefer smoking idiots like these in most major cities making up imaginary plots to get back at the man who is holding them back. Virtually all intelligence estimates write them off as having been a threat.

This is what we have gotten for the estimated $750,000,000,000.00 spent on homeland security exclusive of the FBI or the wars in Iraq and Afganistan. Real bang for the buck way to go Georgie!

JKHayes

This is for JimC2 and the rest of you who think what happens in gitmo is a violation of rights, and feel sorry for the people and how information was extracted from them. What you need is to have your sorry  behind snatched up by a terrorist, strapped to a chair with a time bomb taped to your mouths. Then when they pick the guy up who did it, they can torture him by saying "Pretty please mr bad man, can you tell us where this person is?", and leave it at that. Well, see how fast he is to tell them where he has you stashed before you turn to red rain.

 Personally, i don't think for a second what they did to prisoners in gitmo was anything close to torture. Taking a hammer to someones toes till they tell you what you want to hear, that's torture. So is being strapped to a chair with very wide armrests, and while your hands are immobilised, someone shoving a very long pin say 6" starting at your fingernail, and fully inserting it, 1 finger at a time. That is a good form of torture. Heck, a bra and a thong on my head as torture....sorry but inside i'd be laughing at the way that's supposed to get me to talk. Well guess that also depends if the thong was unwashed, and just super nasty, that's diffrent, but still.

After this war is over the world will soon forget how it was waged, only who won.  Always have, always will.

Don't those same accords allow for summary execution for combatants caught in civilian clothes.  Therein lies the answer.  Just shoot the bas**rds.  Much more humane than what some of our service men and women, and not a few civilians, have had to endure.

If coercion is torture and the Geneva convention applies to non-uniformed combatants then we are lost.

I am not sure why people keep talking about the Geneva Convention.  The Geneva Convention was designed for war between countries not terrorists.  For people to apply the Geneva Convention to Al Queda shows a lack of understanding of the document.  For one to be protected by the Geneva Convetion one must meet four requirements under article four. They are:

They would have to be part of a military hierarchy;

They would have to have worn uniforms or other distinctive signs visible at a distance;

They would have to have carried arms openly;

They would have to have conducted their military operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war.

For individuals to be protected by the Geneva Convention the ruling government also has to sign the treaty.  Al Queda has not signed this treaty.  Signing the treaty is important because it demonstrates that both sides are willing to humanly treat prisoners.  If either party does not sign the treaty the Geneva Convention does not apply to prisoners.

The Geneva Convention does not apply to terrorist under either example.

The Geneva Convention was intentionally designed for prisoners of war not terrorists.  This is an important part that many seem to be missing.  At the convention they deliberatly chose not to include terrorists.  (Please do not anyone respond that terrorists are a new to the world.) 

Should one apply the standards of the Geneva Convention is a different debate.  This debate would focus on individuals that ignore the norms of war being treated as if they did.  It would also have to be asked why would we follow these rules if we know the enemy will not?  Why should they be given status of war prisoners? 

Note also while Bush and Congress that approved the tortures, including Pelosi, stopped many terrorist attacks they continued in other countries.

-- Bombings targeting popular nightclubs on the Indonesian island of Bali in October 2002 killed more than 200 people and injured more than 200.

-- Bombings on commuter trains in Madrid, Spain, in March 2004 killed nearly 200 people and injured nearly 2,000.

-- Suicide bombings targeting London subways and buses in July 2005 killed more than 50 people and injured hundreds.

-- Terrorist attacks in Mumbai, India, conducted last month killed more than 150 people and injured hundreds.

If one is to debate such notions concerning terrorist I would suggest some of you perhaps learn what they are talking about and look how and why the Geneva Convention was created. 

Jim Hayes,

You are showing your partisanship.  Here is just one article from the AP on JFK.  Perhaps you should look at your sources.

NEW YORK - Federal authorities said a plot by a suspected Muslim terrorist cell to blow up John F. Kennedy International Airport, its fuel tanks and a jet fuel artery could have caused “unthinkable” devastation.

But while pipeline and security experts agreed that such an attack would have crippled America’s economy, particularly the airline industry, they said it probably would not have led to significant loss of life as intended.

Authorities announced Saturday they had broken up the suspected terrorist cell, arresting three men, one of them a former member of Guyana’s parliament. A fourth man was being sought in Trinidad as part of the plot that authorities said they had been tracking for more than a year and was foiled in the planning stages.

Concerning International Law you are clearly making stuff up as you go.   That is okay do not let facts get in the way of your partisanship.  Party is truly more important than country.

Some people, the evil ones, the terrorists, should be plunked into a volcano. Case closed.  We abuse? No, we don't.  They on the other  hand, chop off heads, cut off hands, and never, ever let their captives live.  Ok, so we teased this guy, he was uncomfortable, he could not sleep, he was hungry, maybe he was scared.

Our liberal left lets him go, and odds are, he turns around, attacks us again. Kill the bastard and move on. Enough of this sob story crap.

The LA Tower Plot was in a conceptual stage when arrests of the four terrorists were made.  Please do not leave out why.  This plot was part of the 911 plan; however, it was stopped as Bin Laden felt that the operation was becoming to large.  The plot was to move forward again; however, the four terrorists were arrested in Asia as they were trying to reach Bin Laden.  It was to occur upon the return to the US. 

The plot never existed?  Your post is intentionally misleading.   

Here is an excerpt from CNN concerning the Sears Tower. It appears that again you are leaving out that the leader gave the under cover FBI agent $50,000 to buy explosives.   

"The conspirators pledged an oath to al Qaeda and supported a purported mission of al Qaeda to destroy FBI buildings within the United States," it said.

The document said that Batiste wanted to "attend al Qaeda training, along with five of his soldiers, during the second week of April and further detailed his mission to wage a 'full ground war' against the United States in order to 'kill all the devils we can' ... beginning with the destruction of the Sears Tower."

The document also alleges that the suspects may have been targeting buildings other than the Sears Tower. Batiste and Augustin gave the undercover agent photos of Miami's FBI building; photos and video of the James Lawrence King Federal Justice Building, federal courthouse buildings, the Federal Detention Center and the Miami Police Department; all in Miami-Dade County, according to the indictment

Gen. Black Jack Pershing had the right idea. (This is only a rumor)Get a good lot of them in a row in front of a long ditch. Line your men up in single file and slaughter a pig letting the blood drain into a small vat, while the lowest in the terrorist ranks watches. Have you men 1 by 1 dip 5 bullets in the blood. Lock and load.....fire! Just before covering them up put the pig in a wood chipper with the exit pointed to the ditch, then bury them. Let the one terrorist go, after placing the sign of the cross in the pigs blood on his fore head. Tell him to spread the word, thatwill be the fate of any who are caught commiting acts of terror. That will ruin any chance of getting even an old hag in hell, according to their religion if I'm not mistaken. I think according to history, it was a very long time before they had done any type of retaliation, or acts of terrorism against us.

 Then np, close gitmo...

PerryJ,

Your arguments are specious your reading of the Convention and your use of US precedent is non existent. Part I Arcticles 1 through 32 almost in its entirety have been violated. This includes the part that DOES NOT recquire that both parties be signaturees. Also partisans, guerillas and militias are recognized as combatants there are numerous instances of the US recognizing non uniformed combatants as POWs and given them the status accorded. Furthermore the president deemed all Taliban fighters as POWS just not AlQuedda and then set up no mechanism other than torture to determine their status. Geneva extends its provisions against torture to all.  We fought against The Viet Cong and accorded them POW status and all captured in the history of the United States have been accorded some kind of status and not left in limbo for six years. We degrade our own nation when we create Black Holes, Andersonvilles and engage in rendition because we are too cowardly to torture our own captives.

JKHayes

PERRY J- Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mega-Lodon///////// Yes, It is true. Gen. Jack Pershing had the right idea. Even back in the early 1900's, there were Muslim extremists carrying out their agenda. AND since the 1970's, most civilized nations have suffered at the hands of these fanatics.

These terrorists should not be afforded ANY KIND OF RIGHTS under the Geneva convention because AQ does not recognize the doctrine. PERIOD!!!!!!! Enough said!!

PerryJ,

You are wrong one of the accused tried to con $50,000.00 out of an FBI informant,he is the one who said he wanted Al Quedda training , he was running a scam.The arcticles you cite are early govenment releases they have nothing to do with what was presented at two mistrials and one not guilty, you need to read the results not the accusations.

The US has used international law for years in the pusuit and prosecution of crimes affecting US citizens on foreign soil. International law does not supercede US law but is aknowledged as a necessity in dealing with extraterritorial problems. Torture is forbidden and any information acquired there  from It is covered under The UN Conventions Against Torture, Geneva3 and 4 UN Universal Declaration of Rights, Rome Statutes of International Criminal Court and The UN Standard Minimum Rules for Treatment of Prisoners.

Every citing you give starts with US authorities say; they are government releases not news articles or the results of trials. There is not one scintilla of evidence that any LA bombing was ever thwarted as told by you and the president. As to whether it was ever in the thought processes of Bin Laden, who knows Kahlid Sheik Mohammed confessed under torture to masterminding everything from 9/11 to plts to kill Jimmy Carter and Henry Kissinger, other than Judge Crater, Jimmy Hoffa and knocking over a couple of 7-11s in Camden he pretty much confessed to anything. Even if they had tought of it it was not stopped by the Bush Admin. it just never became operational. Clinton didn't stop the plots on Carter , Kissinger or a dozen other things he confessed to plotting they just never happened.

I hve been accused of many things some justified and some not but I never just make it up and I never use the work of "Foundations"or special interests I generally use Offices of Thhe US government for statistics and Wisconsin for periodicals, Harvard and Georgetown libraries for history. I try not to use political sites because they all are ridiculously biased for religious matters I use a variety of sites most often the vatican library, there are numerous Jewish reference sites Koran and Islam a lot harder to follow. I never use government releases to AP or Reuters as evidence, they simply are not. Citing accusations and then not giving the verdict when it does not fit your case and using others such as British Intelligence as a US success especially when the accused are released is the worst kind of research worthy of FOX or NewsMax.

I read that story about Gen Pershing 2 years before 9/11, and all I could think was WOW!. However,  if we did just that same thing today, I'm sure there would be people crying.

The liberals don't care about the 3000 people that died in the WTCs. In their estimation, they all pretty much desrved what they got for being wealthy. On the other hand the poor, oppressed terrroist is simply a freedom fighter who deserves a medal of honor. Shameful bunch.

Liberals have nothing to do with so-called torture since Obama and Panetta (?) are coming in.  Why don't you bleeding heart liberals (is that the right term) spend some time in the military defending your country and dealing with the threats out there head on, instead of sitting back pontificating how to deal with the bad people, those who want to hurt us, without hurting them.

Your bleeding hearts could be real one day.

He was supposed to be the 20th highjacker, but couldn't get in the country.

By all rights the man should be dead right now for Allah's sake!

"The man had to hospitalized twice".

Of all the nerve!

Troy - you said:  "

"The liberals don't care about the 3000 people that died in the WTCs. In their estimation, they all pretty much desrved what they got for being wealthy. On the other hand the poor, oppressed terrroist is simply a freedom fighter who deserves a medal of honor. Shameful bunch."

Please note your source for this insighful piece of information.  Please tell me what research was done for you to come to such a conclusion.

Troy - based on your logic - Conservatives don't care about the 4000+ troops killed in Iraq - a war and country that had nothing to do with 9/11.  All the while the man responsible is still out there plotting and planning to kill more Americans!  Yeah - way to be Troy!  Way to go Righties! 

Guess what - you had your time, you've spewed your nonsense for 29 yrs and you accomplished NOTHING - so now it's our turn - if you don't like it - GET OUT!  hahahaha  how do you like them apples!

America is now a Liberal nation and the righties cacan all move to another country- maybe Iraq or Israel! - oh how fun the pay back is going to be!

Doesn't take much brain power...it's the liberal mantra. Fight it all you want, you know the truth. You guys sympathize with terroists and demand their rights. What sources do I need?

For Anthony, I personally got the info from reverend Wright. Do you have other info?

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4443788&page=1

darrel - yeah - rev. wright speaks for all of us!  ha!  just like pat robertson speaks for all righties!

i laugh at how easily manipulated you righties are - clearly if you are the same room as someone who thinks a certain way, then naturally you will be automatically programmed to think that way too!  haha

Simple Minds!

AnthonyV- I hope you never have to fight for your country. It's war dummy, there are going to be lives lost. But these folks were willing to die for the nation they believe in. So while you are out protesting for transvestites, pedaphiles, terrorist's rights and abortion rights, you'll be able to sleep soundly at night knowing you are being protected.

normally i refrain from lumping people into categories such as righties - but heck, i'm feeling frisky today- let's see just how irate I can make some of you today!

anthony, I realize Wright doesn't speak for all, or many, for that matter, and probably not for you, but I guarantee there are people posting on here than believe exactly what Rev Wright is saying. 

Robertson is a little TOO far right for me, btw. 

Have a good one!

troy - i didn't know transvestites needed protesting in their name. i never protest for terrorists nor do i know ANYONE who does - but please keep em coming, I'm almost on the floor laughing at how ridiculous yur assumptions of your fellow americans are.  The fact is, you are so caught up in the right wing created hatred for others that you are too blind to see it is your thinking that is the problem and NOT the Liberal lefties!

You're too busy assuming where others stand based on a comment or stance they take on one issues, to even bother asking or caring where they stand on other issues. Because you ASSUME you are right in every conversation you engage in.  Like the little kid who hasn't realized the world does not revolve around him, yet!

Lefties are no longer fellow Americans. They are the enemy within. Anything that is immoral or despicable is what you libs want to see come to fruition. You're sleeping with the terrorists. Just getting down to brass tacks. Call it what you will.

troy

You're just another neo-conazi. I've seen you on a number of other posts with this KKK drivel.

I served in combat, oatmeal for brains. If you want to get into who's not American I can go there with you. Anyone who wants to negate the rights, freedoms and guarentees provided by the Constitution and Bill of Rights for -every- American citizen; anyone who thinks torture is fine and dandy. Anyone who thinks that doing to someone, even a low-life scumbag, what low-life scumbags do to people is not American in their thoughts, words or deeds but, in fact, is the enemy within working to destroy the values, Constitution and freedoms of this country and needs to be deported out. Not only that but they're a coward too scared of their own frigging shadow to ever be of any worth to the human race much less America.

How's that, sick piece of trailer trash?

To Pass the Pork....You don't think that no person of a liberal thought has never served in the military so cannot relate to our American soldiers?  Wow.  You guys don't get it, we're all in this together.  And Troy about not caring about the 3000 people dying in 9/11; again it was not Iraq, boy has Bush spun you!  Why don't we care about thousands and thousands of people that get murdered by hand guns in this country each and every year.  You don't see that as acts of terror?  I guess those criminals don't need to be tortured because they are not of some other religious persuasion.

America used to stand for a higher ideal, to be superior to others in our freedom and justice. To tourture even one indivisual brings shame upon the whole country. None of us likes terrorists, killers, rapists but our system was once the best in that everyone no matter how evil had a clear right to defend themself. This is what separated us not ony from the heathen but from the other nations we call our friends. The statue of liberty stands proud and justice is still blind. Cant we still be the best in the world and be once again a beacon of light and truth without debasing ourselves with torture?  

should have cut his head off. so what my country first screw you liberals

Or...should have waterboarded him, so what Bush/Cheney first screw you conservatives!

Sheesh...

the thing to look at is tho, a small few of these people will be deported, the rest, according to guidelines, we can't keep prisoners from foreign wars on American soil. Don't be surprised if we farm them out to another country, and they even escape. The best thing to do, is put them in a federal prison with the hard timers....I hope they can re-write the laws to do this. I'm pretty sure it would be a lot cheaper of a move for the taxpayer, seriously, in with the real hard time to life crowd.....no torture there is there, and they are right where they need to be.

Gee JimC - You seemed to have shut TroyTrailerTrash down.

AnthonyV - You can't reason with vermin.

Enjoying the heck out of this.

hey mark, youre really misinformed, what do the democrats stand for, lol. be realistic, not foolish. we all forget the victims of nine eleven, where is their justice?

I don't think there are many people who believe torture is a "good" thing.  Maltreating people whom you control, just because you can, is contemptible.

However, there are some folks who seem to believe think that extreme interrogation techniques (or torture if you prefer) are (is) effective.

I am not sure.  I expect if I were being extremely interrogated/tortured, I'd tell my interrogator/torturer whatever he wanted to hear, just to make him stop.  The truth of statements made under duress has to be suspect.

Mark you whine to much.. Why dont you go live there since you seem to think these people are harmless.

Mark,

You go live in another country, if you do not want to protect ours from Terrorist.  What this terrorist went through is not torture, you have got to be kidding.  I would promote doing anything if there was going to be an attack on the USA. 

I would like to put some kind of tracking element on those released from Gitmo to see who ends up being suicide bombers or fighting our brave soldiers in the Middle East.  I will bet money we will see all of the detainees again and they will cause alot of death, but please protect their rights.

Mark, you are true-blue lib. Why don't we just give them what's left of America. Would that make you happy?

I sit hear and have read as far as post 5.5 and I am shocked and some of the grow up replies that are here.

Just because some think the country is above torture and above those that seek us out to kill means we support them.  I am sure I will be called a leftie on this...go ahead i have been called a rightie on other things.

Fact is I don't know if this was torture I do know that when I read what this country did to this man and the other man i was sad.  We claim as a country to have it right and to try and have others live like us that we are Morally better than some of these other countries when if fact we are not.  we sink as low as them and do horriable things.

We are just a racest or what ever the right term is...as they are.  They hate us for being american...and we hate anyone that looks like those that attacked us...we take there race and religion of 19 people and blaim millions....it went from extermist to all muslisms to all arabs. 

It's sad the state that this country is has fallen into.  and frankly i would like us to do the job with out sinking as low as we have.  and we can do it.  to sink this low is lazy and frankly morally wrong.  I do agree that we need to protect this country.  My husband is military doing his part.  But it sickens me the level we have sunk...I wonder if those that this treatment was fine and dandy would feel the same if this was a US citizen or military trooper that it was done with.

I know you wouldn't be ok with it.  Remember Jessica Lynch?

The point is protect this country with out sinking to terrorist way.  Do it and keep our country in good standing so we have a foot to stand on and not the do as I so not as I do thing.

I dont think anyone on either side of this debate/argument thinks "torture is a good thing." I think the officials in this country thought that from the information/intelligence gathered (and I have worked in the Intelligence field for 30+ years) that there was a serious immenent threat to this people in this country.

I think that they thought that the threat was immenent/serious enough that steps had to be taken that were outside of the "norm." That part is obvious. I think that every single person involved had NOTHING more in mind than protecting this country and our citizens.

By all accounts, those tactics helped dismantle the Taliban and Al Queida in Afghanistan and Iraq. Some of those tactics even helped uncover a terrorist sleeper-cell here on US soil and other planned attacks on our homeland. We can only imagine what the sleeper-cell might have done to perfectly innocent people living here. Translated American lives were very likely saved. Maybe yours, maybe mine - or members of our families.

So, did Bush break the law? Personally, I dont care. He took action against an enemy unlike any other this nation has ever faced. An enemy that knows NO MORAL BOUNDRIES. Before you cast stones at President Bush, go to one the terrorist web-sites and download one of their treasured decaptitation videos. You NEED to see it to understand what is being dealt with. Or watch one of their videos where they doing despciable things to our dead American soldiers. I am serious - go watch one of them. EVERYONE in America should see what they are capable of doing.

After you watch it, then come back and tell me what your stance is. Before you defend them, fully understand what they are. Before you free them, understand what they fully intend to do our Americans in uniform when they get back on the battlefield. 

I voted for President Bush. I fully support what he did to protect/defend this country from this new and unique enemy we face. He did nothing but try to protect us.

I did not vote for Barack Obama. Why does not matter. He is now my/our President. I will pray every single night that he makes the best possible decisions to protect all of is - especially those in uniform who are the "tip of the spear" fighting one of the most evil enemies this nation has faced. If he deems it necessary to "break our laws" to defeat them, then I say he probably knows more than we do, and we need to back him all the way.

I will NEVER say - "prosecute him", throw him out, and all that BS. Did I say give him free license and allow to become a Dictator. NO, I said we have a unique and extraordinarily evil enemy. Because that is what we are dealing with, I believe it is necessary to inherintly trust my/our President (regardess of party affiliation, race, or any thing else) and allow him to do what is necessary to defeat this enemy and protect American lives.

Leave all the other subjects/issues alone - *protecting American lives*

I believe George W Bush did his best, and a pretty good job of doing that. We have not had a repeat of 9/11, and Al Quida and Taliban were pretty much dismantled. The sleeper cell in the US was identified and handled.

George W Bush did a pretty good job on that one.

President Barack Obama is my/our President. I HOPE and PRAY that he not only does as good a job - I hope he does a better job. 

Regardless of which side of the argument anyone participating in this thread is on, I hope you will take the time to pray for OUR President.

Mark, I endorse most of your sentiment - except the "love it or leave it" part.  Americans need to value all opinions - even wrong ones.

Since the act of torture can not render any reliable information, I have to think the only purpose was revenge for those victums of 9/11.  This then soddens the memory of those inocent 9/11 victums, an puts the torture perpetraters on the same level as the terrorist. 

We can never show the terrorists the value of humanitarian ethics if we do not practice them ourselves; but, it is not the terrorists that I am so concerned about as it is my fellow Americans.  I do not sleep well at night knowing that attempts to procure my and my family's safety include torture.

PLEASE STOP FULFILLING YOUR NEED FOR REVENGE BY SAYING IT IS FOR MY SAFETY!!!!!

Even Bush said America does not endorse torture and would never do so. So, for all of you who think it is unAmerican to speak out against torture....look to your hero for an example of true American morality.

Gene in Arizona. Well said. I hope that Americanscan remember these sentiments when President Obama takes office. We will need to stand behind our president then, also.

I will adopt the "love it or leave it" philosophy in this case. America does not torture. If you believe in torture you are not American. Please leave.

hey mark, youre really misinformed, what do the democrats stand for, lol. be realistic, not foolish. we all forget the victims of nine eleven, where is their justice?

And the Republicans stand for "truth, justice, and the American way"? No, they stand for waterboarding and the rest of it. Some of you flag wavers are so ignorant...that we as Americans seem to have the God given right to torture just because we're Americans and they're not.

 will adopt the "love it or leave it" philosophy in this case. America does not torture. If you believe in torture you are not American. Please leave

http://www.vetvoice.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=2309

Read this article. It is from an Iraq and Afghanistan veteran's web site. This is proof, from the veterans you want to support, that Dick Cheney authorized torture at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib. Proof. If you still want to stand by your statement that "America does not torture", you are dumb as a post. 

America does not torture? Dick Cheney admitted that we're waterboarding at Gitmo and Abu Ghraib. Waterboarding has been defined as torture in the Geneva Convention. Hence America is torturing...unless you are one of those fools who thinks that because we're Americans we're incapable of torture. Oh, and I am an American, have been for all of my nearly 53 years, and I think it's wrong to torture. Why don't you leave?

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding here. I should have said America SHOULD not torture. Those who torture, like Cheney, are not true Americans and anyone who supports torture is not a true American. The statement "America does not torture" was to be taken as an ideal. like "America does not enslave'"etc. I know there has been torture and that is why I say those who do so should leave these shores.  I hope that is a little more clear

Gene you said:

 think that they thought that the threat was immenent/serious enough that steps had to be taken that were outside of the "norm." That part is obvious. I think that every single person involved had NOTHING more in mind than protecting this country and our citizens.

If the threat was sooo eminent- why did we wait 11 months to interrogate him? 

11 MONTHS!  - yes very eminent threat!

AnthonyV -

In all seriousness - you honestly think someone was board one day and decided to fill their time waterboarding people? Seriously, is that what you are suggesting?

Does it perhaps make more sense that something a litte more was going on? 

Regarless - Just wait. Things will eventually come out about Obama too. It does for every single President.

Then he can be another President for you to hate too. New threads can be started on Newsvine, or some other blogging site some where. Then everyone can say what liar he is ... and all that garbage.

NOT me. This is *my* country. Again, I have worked in the Intelligence community for 30+ years. There are things the general population will NEVER know. Things you would not want to know, and certainly would not want to deal with. Our President will, and it will be that persons JOB to protect us.  

When it comes to defending our nation, our citizens, our Americans in uniform fighting these enemies - I *WILL* support my President. I will ASSUME he actions are in the best interest of defending our nation and our citizens.

And on Independence Day, and Veterans Day, and Presidents Day - I will proudly raise the stars and stripes in front of my house.

Try that approch some day.

It is a little more "American", in my mind anyway.

So you are upset about 9/11? why? If you  condone otherwise inhumanne acts when they suit you.  But you want to hold the others responsible and condem them for their inhumane acts.  Strange  logic. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it.  The other side has also some "justification" of why they did, what they did.  I thought the USA was built on human principles and not  on "do as we say and not as we do".

"I expect my country to torture these pigs of world society"  People that make statements like this are exactly why the enemy treats prisoners the way they do, why they ram planes into tall buildings.  They think we're all of this sort of mind-set. 

In the future, it will only get worse with no protection from the Geneva Convention anymore.  And why?  Because of school-yard bullies like yourself that want everyone else to play by the rules except you. 

This is NOT a partisan issue, despite the constant attack on 'liberals', 'Democrats', 'leftists';  this is an issue of HUMANITY.  If the conservatives that are making it a partisan issue want to be considered 'human', maybe you'd better rethink your position. Otherwise, you are no better than the terroists. 

Let me see, you describe having to wear a bra and act like a dog, and run around nude as torture... That means many fraternities torture more Americans than any army or CIA Did! And I have to agree, if it accomplishes saving hundreds of American lives then go ahead and use the methods described. It really is not TORTURE, and remember the Geneva Convention only applies to uniformed soldiers or a regular army, not jihadists running around shooting people from behind rocks and sending kids out to blow themselves up! Boy am I sick of all the "Blame America First" liberals!

War is a terrible thing, but can not be fought and won by being P.C. or humane. A report like this article would never have been released unless it was on someones political agenda, it's trash in my opinion. Ask any captured prisoner of war veteran about how they were treated by the enemy and you will have your answer. This is military information and should never have been released to the public, unless of course this reporter that wrote it and the person that released it wants to go find out first hand what the terrorist does to an American prisoner in their custody. Let's compare the two and see what happens then. We must win the war against terrorist that wants to destroy our country.

this is war not peace time folks  criminal law is not military law  that man was caught on the battle field not in a ac tof committing a crime there is not suspects in a military combat fight  u guys really need to grow up if u want to send cops to fight in a war and start giving civil rights to terrorists in a combat zone

Politicos et al,

   When the terrorists hijacked the plane, they killed several thousand innocent people that hand nothing to do with anything.  NOW you compare that tragedy with the numbnuts that were actually captured by the U. S. Military??

   When we sign up for military service, we don't expect to go to war, BUT we have a good idea that military skirmishs just might happen during our time in.  AND we expect that there are inherent dangers that come along with going to war.  SAME as the low life terrorists.  You think they went into the situation with blinders on??  Just like the Hamas terrorist cowards, they go to kill civilians, NOT the military.

   If they had a beef with the U. S. government or the military, then they should have attacked ONLY the government buildings and the military.  NO, they didn't do that, they ATTACKED civilian properties.

   BACK to my point, when a military person or a militant is captured, they know that they aren't going to be treated like royalty.  They know they run that risk.  Doesn't mean we have to torture them, but as several posters have already said, we were in the midst of 11Sept01 and it was a scary time!!  WE wanted answers before more planes came crashing down.

I don't mean to be flippant since some of our citizens have been involved in being tortured, but for the guys on here, let's take a vote about what torture is.

1) Beheading with a dull saw.

2) Being skinned alive.

3) Burned while still alive.

4) Castrated without anesthesia.

5) Being made to stand naked in front of a woman in a cold room. (there could be shrinkage). 

1-4 have been done by the enemy.   number 5 might be embarrassing, but is hardly torture.

Darrell - yeah - i'm certain we did much worse to the guy - my stance is - why waste the time torturing?  Just kill him or send him to trial and sentence him to death by flogging! 

To Joe the "Un" American. You want torture? I think that says it all. Please leave these shores and let law abiding Anericans live with freedom and justice. Americans do not want torture. You are not wanted here.

There is a simple answer here, one that Bush & Co. don't want to use. Put the Gitmo prisoners on trial! If they are guilty, put them into our prison system: once Bubba makes one of them his wife he will likely sing like a bird. If they are innocent, deport them and put them on the Homeland Security list of people not allowed to enter the country. But no, that's too simple, and it would mean having to close Dick Cheney's favorite vacation spot.

People who advocate torture of prisoners are idiots. They decry the beheading of American prisoners by terrorists (how many have there really been? three? four?) but cheer at our torture, even to the point of claiming it's not really "torture". This is a textbook example of two wrongs not making a right. For those of you claiming that being forced to stand naked on a cold floor, that might be stretching the definition of "torture", at least by domestic standards...but I'd like to see you undergo waterboarding, then stand up and tell the public at large that it's not torture. Go ahead, give it a shot...after all, our government doesn't torture, does it? Does it??? 

Joe,

Torture is a war crime and can prosecuted in international courts.  Do you approve of criminal actions by our country?  I don't call that American.

and before anyone says that our president can't be tried by international courts...you should be aware that America agreed to the rules established. Heck, we wrote many of them. If our country would be on the up-and-up, we would try President Bush and company. They should be punished for their crimes.

So, while pledging you had to be hospitalized for a potentially life threatening condition caused by your "hazing"? 

Right, or wrong this guy was: "Qahtani had to be hospitalized twice at Guantanamo with bradycardia, a condition in which the heart rate falls below 60 beats a minute and which in extreme cases can lead to heart failure and death"

Obviously you missed the point of my comment.  These people would not return the same type of treatment or sympathy that you are so willing to exhibit for him.  He was designated as the 20th hijacker before being picked up in Florida in Aug. of 2001 where he had just flown in from Afghanistan, where he learned to cut throats with a box knife by practicing on goats.  Wich is what he would do to you as you are expressing your concern for his health.  I have no sympathy for him or anyone like him, given what he was planning to do and what he will do if released. 

ceo - we don't haze!!!!  rememebr??!!!  come on - you can't be letting that out - fraternites do not haze, we perform "trust" activities

Hey TonyV - I've been reading a few bits of your mindless diatribe in these various threads and I've come to the conclusion that you would benefit from a good ol fashion water boarding.  I can send you a one way ticket to Gitmo if you'ld like....you better hurry and take advantage before Barry closes it down. 

ceo - could you please send me that ticket?  I would love for you to waste your money on it!

Where did that even come from - i was joking with you about the hazing bit - i too pledged a fraternity and was joking with you about the whole "not hazing" because we need to be PC and so I was reminding you to be PC and call them "trust activities"  but hey - way to totally misread that one slick!

Good come back...I'm intimdated by the ascerbic wit, but I wasn't responding to your comments regarding hazing.  As mentioned, I was responding to some of the other postings you have made on this discussion.  Your response just gave me the opportunity to express a thought that I had after reading some of your statements.  So you pledged a fraternity...I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you never went active because you either dropped out or were black balled....the term "pinhead" comes to mind.  Sorry...they're just some idle thoughts.

He was designated as the 20th hijacker before being picked up in Florida in Aug. of 2001 where he had just flown in from Afghanistan

You know...that's rather funny. The U.S. government has already tried and convicted Zacarias Moussaoui as the 20th hijacker! (http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/05/03/moussaoui.verdict/index.html) So which is it? Are there two "20th hijackers"? Shouldn't one of them be the 21st hijacker?

So our government doesn't torture, they just make up tags for these guys, like "20th hijacker", to make them sound even worse. Some people will believe anything the government spews! Everyone else doles out propaganda, but our government would never lie to us, would they? Would they??? 

MT Mike,

Please leave our great country.

You wouldn't be sitting there typing that crap on your computer if Japan had not reaped what they sowed. The terrorist came and killed almost three thousand innocent Americans, Now they must reap what they have sown.

go fight for al quedo then mtmike  u are a disgrace 

Trusty...It's very interesting that you bring up Japan. 

How many people died, or survived as the 'living dead', in Nagasaki and Hiroshima after we dropped the bomb??  The answer is...200,000, total INNOCENT casualties.  That's over 65 times the number killed on 9-11. 

Second question: Didn't the Japanese release the American prisoners after the war?  Yes, they did; The Japanese even 'allowed' us to occupy their country for several years afterward, and we still maintain military bases there. 

Third question: Were the crews of the Enola Gay and Bock's Car tortured for the terrorist act of dropping the bombs on innocent civilians?  No.  These acts were the basis for the Geneva Conventions adopted after WW2 that specifically prohibit collective punishments against the general civilian population.

Last:  How does this relate to the Gitmo prisoner Mohammed al-Qahtani?  The Geneva Convention amendments, as referred to above, contain this: "No person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed." As far as I know, Qahtani has not personally done anything...he has been tortured for alleged plotting and being privy to information, which, in itself, is not a terrorist act.

Before you all start telling me to 'Love it or leave it", please know that I realize the jihad is a dangerous thing, and that the Muslims involved are without law or scruple. The above is just the facts.  And, no matter who ordered the torture, no matter how the right tries to blame the left, no matter how many towers were destroyed, no matter how many Americans have been killed in this war of our own making, if we do not adhere to the law, then we are no better than the jihadists.

Passthepork, please tell me what your problem with Leon Panetta is.  He use to by my congressman.  He is honorable man.  He is a real veteran (as opposed to W and Cheney.)  He understands the military (according to my husband who worked on several military issues with Mr. Panetta.)  He has demonstated abilities as a manager.  He is well versed in international affairsl  And, he is a fiscal CONSERVATIVE. 

Let me do the interrogations....please.

The "human rights" liberals were most likely in the place after the 9/11 attacts as they were after the Oklahoma bombings. They condemed them. They however did not blindly attack white guys with crew cuts that were former U.S. veterans.

Religion. Against his religion. Sorry but religious belief goes out the window if your belief system says kill those that don't believe as you do. If we can stop another 9/11 from happening then what ever our people need to do to get the information is alright by me.

Christy His Religion says to KILL YOU.. To him are you property.. Do you understand that?

Christy - WHAT? Are you saying they have the right to attack us because we torured them? Chicken and the egg - which came first?

I don't need a moral highground - my needs are defined in the Constitution. Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Terrorists are enemies of mankind. My moral highground comes from knowing we are doing everything we can to eliminate the threat to humanity. Well, before NObama came along that is.

Christy Elmasri

"tactics..against his religion". Are you saying that planning to kill 3000 people as he did is within the confines of his religion? If that is so, then you're frightening me.

Tony:  Your statement; "Sorry but religious belief goes out the window if your belief system says kill those that don't believe as you do". 

Are you a Christian?  What about the Crusades, The Inquisitions, the invasion of the American continent?  Led by the Christian Church, they believed in killing by war and torture all those that believed differently, up until the 19th Century, and killed millions more than 3000 people.

We are reaping what we have sown.

Christy

Grow up! The muslim world has always tortured and beheaded and terrorized innocent people even before the US existed! Our so called good behavior will not change their ways! Unfortunately war is like a fight, if the man pulls a knife, then you need to pull a gun or die!

These people don't like our music, the way we let our wives and daughters dress or even allow them to talk in public much less vote.

They don't like very much about our way of life. They enjoy the benefits of our way of life (oil) but would not give us the ablity to live that way of life if they could stop us.

 If our soon to be sworn in President does what he says it will be seen by them as weakness just like when our men were drug through the streets of Africa and we did nothing about it. This doctrine of live and let live has been tried at least twice before. Both times it cost the World a World War. If we do what has been proposed it could again and I will nominate the peace at any cost persons the front line with what ever weapons they may choose.

threepines, great logic there. We should torture and kill these people because they don't like the Bee Gees,  or like the fact  that we allow women to vote? please!

For Alise, I always get a kick out of statements from people to show that Christianity is just as hateful a religion as Islam has become.  The examples to "prove" this go back as far as 700-800 years.   We're in the 21st century. Give some more recent examples.

And your comment that "we are reaping what we sow", that does sound exactly like Reverend Wright.  You don't care much for the United states do you, Alise?

Most so-called fundamendalists, whether Moslim or Christian, are following a form of their religion that does not exactly follow what their founder stated. 

Mohammed taught that women were to be respected.  He clearly stated that boys and girls should be treated equally.  Girls could not be married off agains their will, etc.  And, ALL children of the Book (Bible) had to be respected -- all Jews, Christians and Moslims.  Is that what we see today?

Jesus taught us to "turn the other cheek."  He taught us to take care of those who could not take of themselves.  He taught us to "render until Ceaser that which is Ceaser's and until to God that which is God's."  He told us "Whoever is without sin may throw the first stone."

I don't think Jesus or Mohammad (or Abraham) would approve what is going on right now.

darrell...I'm sure that you're still giggling, but if Western Europeans hadn't engaged the Muslims in the Middle East during the Crusades, they might not hate us so much now (I would guess that you are of European descent, as are the majority of Americans).  You might not be a Christian if the Inquisitions hadn't happened, as there might actually be other choices...Christianity might have completely gone the way of Egyptian or Roman religion by now. 

You want hatefulness in current religion?  Go to any Christian church meeting in the U.S. and start talking about Buddism, or Islam, or Rastafarianism, or Wicca...stand up during the service and talk about it in a profound way, long and loud, tell the congregation that they are wrong about their own beliefs, and how they are damned to eternal scourge without conversion to your own beliefs, give it feeling! I will guarantee you that you will not encounter the Prince of Peace among the believers; you will only know their wrath.  They will hate you, despise you and call you names, if they don't just make you unwelcome and show you the door in a quite 'unChristian-like' way.  In some areas, it might even come to blows, or worse.

I don't know, or care, about your Reverend Wright.  Religions are all cults.  Although I am not an atheist, I don't believe in using the crutch of religion to give myself false authority like so many do; true is true and false is false, based on facts.  I was raised in the church, and know from what I've seen and experienced, there and elsewhere, that hatefulness in the church is alive and well.  I work for a faith based organization, so I see it everyday.

I love the USA...your accusation is based on your own narrow-minded hatefulness; that because I am not singing the praises of Bush and Christianity, I am unpatriotic.  That is horse doo... It takes more love for country to think, and say what is wrong with it, than to blindly parrot the phoney patriots on Fox News that have their own agendas. 

darrell, I get a kick out of you, too.  You make me think of this quote by Sinclair Lewis, Nobel and Pulitzer laureate, and a TRUE patriot: "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying the cross."

Alise42

 If a terrorist group is planning another attack on US soil then yes get the information any way you can and put a stop to it.

 If in your Religious charter it states kill every American you can, behead them on TV, shoot them in the streets, set fire to there bodies, or blow up the buildings they live in. Then I firmly agree that you have given up all rights as a human being and should be treated as such.

Tony:  That would have to presume that there was to be another terrorist attack.  Presumption is not fact.

If it is an ascertained fact from an unimpeachable source (that there is going to be another attack), then the information about the attack should be from the unimpeachable source.  After all, he must have the contacts to get the original information, and  the further details (to back it up) that we need to put a stop to it; otherwise, it is merely rumor and innuendo.  Do you think it is acceptable to torture ("any way you can") on a rumor? 

Again, I refer to the Holy Crusaders of the 11th through 13th centuries:  except for the phrase 'on TV', you have described precisely how they took the Holy Land from the 'Muslim Infidels' during the Crusades, with full sanction of the Church, indeed, FOR the Church.  Do you also feel that the Church (basically, the same Church today as it was then, run by humans) has given up their rights as human beings?  The excuse that 'that was then, this is now', is a cop-out...the Church would be the first to tell you they are 'eternal', and the dogma and creed has changed little, if at all.   How do you suggest we 'treat' them?

What is the unimpeachable source? What is rumor and what is fact? How do you seperate the 2?

 Any and all information has to be taken seriously until proven false. We also have to face facts. Most if not all prisoners at Gitmo where caught in the act or with materials that could be used in an attack. Should we just let them go so they can go back to what they where doing and wait for them to carry out there plans?

I am meaning that the unimpeachable source is whomever is giving the information in the first place.  If this informant is believable enough that we would overlook sets of rules like the Geneva Convention to wage a pre-emptive attack, or imprison suspected terrorists and 'suspicious persons', then let this same source get more information; he obviously has the contacts to do so, if he is so 'believable'.

Your questions, "What is believable and what is fact?" and "How do you separate the two?" are good ones.  I could get all existential on you, but that's for another time ;) .  The problem is, in these sorts of things, we are never sure what is fact or lie.  You can't take the word of just anyone, and who knows where the original information comes from...is the informant playing both sides of the fence?  You never know.  Intelligence agents have been wrong in the past. This is why I am so against torture to get information: the original premise (information) may be completely wrong. There may not be any additional terrorist threat.  We may be being 'set up' for something else.

The facts are that not all detainees at Guantanamo were "caught in the act or with materials that could be used in an attack".  One was a writer with a PhD in English Literature that wrote satirical essays about the US and the Taliban.  One was 13 when he was captured and sold by bounty hunters.  At least a half dozen detainees have been held because they were wearing CasioF91W watches at airports.  Many others have been given no reason for why they have been held.  These facts are easy to find on the web...the AP keeps a list, as does the Washington Post.  They are not all terrorists or jihadists, although after their treatment at the hands of their captors, how do you think they will feel about us, the US?  Maybe this is why there is so much fear about 'letting them go'.  What's wrong with surveillance after their release?

We are still the United States of America, and no matter how scared we may be of actual or perceived threats, we cannot just decide that all detainees are guilty until proven innocent and torture them for 'information'.  That is not the American way.  It is not who we are as a people.  It is wrong. 

All the same without information we can't move forward. Terrorist are not covered under the Rules Of War set by the Convention. Will mistakes be made.. sure but that is a chance we have to take. The people where after want to die if it can harm America.

 How do you fight that without taking extreme measures? They don't care if they live or die because in there eyes it's instant martyr and straight to heaven with the 72 virgins.

I admit fully that the jihadists are scary folks, terrorists in the truest sense of the word. The 'promise of 72 virgins' is a compelling argument to them that makes them stronger than us.  However, the CIA budget was $900 million in 2000, and $471 billion in 2007...it seems to me that somehow, with that kind of expenditure, we could buy the information we need, rather than trying to get it from a prisoner by using depraved means. 

I see people here on the boards say constantly that the US is such a great country because we have brave young men that are willing to die for our beliefs...hypothetically then, are some not willing to infiltrate the enemy to get the information we need, even if it means certain death?  I'm sure we already have agents such as this, but if there are 50 now, why not train 200, 500, 2000, if it means more accurate information?  And I do believe that any information from infiltrators would be much more accurate than a tortured confession from a prisoner. We do have the technology to take these kind of 'extreme measures'.

I am not saying our troops don't do a great job. They are being soldiers and following orders. My husband served in Viet Nam, and my son in the Gulf War, and I do understand about soldering.  But the statistics are pathetic...4200+US casualties, over 100,000 wounded, 320,000 brain injuries, 17 suicides a day.  And we have killed over 1,300,000 Iraqis, many of those women and children.  1,300,000??!! 

Is our goal to just lay waste to Iraq, or actually make some point?  What is the real point?  I don't believe anymore that it is about 'Iraqi Freedom', or our safety from terrorism, or from the Taliban and al Queda.  Whatever it is, (and I'm not sure anyone except the some shady part of the government knows: we have been lied to so much) whatever the true goal...wouldn't it be better served using intelligent means rather than just sending in men and women and guns and weapons of destruction to shoot things up?  We are a technologically advanced nation, so why is the body count so important? Why not look to a third party, say Buddhists, to whom peace is part of their credo, and for the most part, unrelated to the west or the middle east, as arbitrators to settle this?

I appreciate our discourse on this subject, Tony, and I thank you for being a gentleman.  I am interested in hearing your thoughts. 

Thank you

 The problem as I see it even with the increase budget is you can't buy good intel. Look at it this way..If I know you'll pay me why not just make something up or accuse someone I don't like?

 Getting someone into these cells in an effort to get information is also high risk. They can tell where your from just by accent in most cases and if they go to where they believe the informant is from or where they say there from to check there background..well you know where that line is headed.

Now have we been lied to? Yes. If GWB had just admitted that we wanted him to be our man in Iraq but he turned around and started turning the medical supplies we sent into bio-weapons to commit mass murder people wouldn't have been so upset with him. We knew Osama wasn't in Iraq after 9-11 but instead of setting 2 strong fronts (one to stop the mass killing of Kurds using boi-material we supplied and the second to get Osama in Afghanistan) he only went after Iraq. His reasoning for this is see through (you threatened my Dad and being an Oil Man you have oil) and so we went to Iraq with force but Afghanistan is a token Force.

As for the body count the only real answer is numbers. You have to justify a budget and that's where the numbers come in. Sad fact but true. If your supplied with 2 billion and only get 2 targets you can rest assured your budget will be cut but if you get 200 targets with reliable intel you don't have to worry as much.

I have a link for a video I can post if you like. The Lady speaking describes the kind of mentality where up agaisnt and the danger they pose. It is an eye opener from someone whose been there. The video is about 45 minutes long (maybe a bit longer) but worth it.

http://multimedia.heritage.org/content/wm/Lehrman-092706a.wvx

I posted the link for the video. She was born in Lebanon and is a highly respected speaker. She also answers questions from the News Reporters at the end with some surprising answers.

Obama's going to change the world. ):

ah - but it is the last voice on tha matter

Get a life. Obama has already said we wil try to talk but if talking fails it's game on.

Right... game on--- raise taxes and take our guns away... NOT!!!

Other than the isolation it sounds like spring break minus the booze

Invoke the fairness doctriine. If MSNBC is going to have an article on US "torturing" prisoners, do a report on the beheadings of American and other prisoners of Al Queda, also report the mutilation, burning and hanging of American Soldiers.  And I think we should all watch the video of the plane flying into the WTC and people jumping out of the windows to get away from the fire.

for all the conservatives out there - what does it do to your brain to find out Obama just had dinner with a bunch of Conservative writers and pundits to hear their ideas for fixing the economy and to hear the concerns of the conservative party....hmmm...he just must of been full of rhetoric huh?

You don't get it - the man does not believe in Red states and Blue states - he wants what is best for the United States of America!

Darrell - The only people talking about the Fairness Doctrine are the right wingers talking about how bad it would be.  I guess they are afraid that the fairness would highlight the flaws in their ideology.

To be honest, I'd rather have a chance to hear both sides at one sitting.  It can only help all of us to be more educated.  (The truth is usually somewhere between both extremes.)  You should only fear the Fairness Doctrine if you fear education and fairness.

And, Anthony, it is such a breath of fresh air that Obama is willing to listen -- and actively engage -- people of all beliefs and backgrounds.  I wish Bush had done that.

They will blame Bush if that happens.  It won't matter that President Bush took the fight to the terrorists in an unrelenting way since 9/11.  The people who decided to vote for Obama over a tried and true American hero haven't a clue about what it takes to keep our country safe.  It is as though they think America is a magical place that requires no hard work just happy thoughts and rhetorical discourse.  I hate to be the one to point this out but it wasn't fancy speeches that won our freedom from Great Britain and that has safe guarded much of the world for much of the last century.

People will still blame Bush, even though the husband of the new Sec of State had the opportunity to capture Bin Laden before 9/11 happened. 

Biden even said that when the anointed one is in office that he will be tested by these terrorists. 

It's getting about that time for all good conservatives to grab their guns and ammo and head for the hills, while their is still time. If you think our rights are being stifled now, wait until this time next year when Obama sin laden takes your guns and snuffs out any opposing voice. Time for vigilance.

No fight was taken to the terrorist.  We went over for 3 months, claimed victory - where there was none.  Then we left and started fighting a war based on agenda, and past failures.  At least Obama has full intention of returning the fight to the terrorist.  His goal is to go back to Afghanistan and finish the fight.  Go over the borders, if necessary and do some real damage.  Am I the only one who listened to the debates.  That was McCain's main problem with Obama's war tactics.  Obama does not care where the terrorist is, he wants to find them and kill them.  Seems like everyone here agrees with that philosophy. 

People need to pull their heads out of Bush's ass.  Bush has taken more personal time than any president in history, an honor previously held by Ronald Reagan, and Reagan was at Peace and shot during his presidency.  Bush has attempted to run the Country while hanging out at his Ranch in Texas or flying over, not landing, in places devastated by natural disasters.  At least America's got it right and elected someone who cares about America, and not someone who likes how he looks in front of the Presidential Seal.

Do you really think that just because

People Watcher, that was at one point where Obama talked about the Afghanistan/Pakistan thing, but apparently you didn't listen to all his talk either. He also said he would bring all the troops home within 16 months.   I would think by home, he meant US rather than AFghanistan.   We really don't know what he's going to do, and the sad part is I don't think he does either.

obama has never once said he would bring the troops HOME in 16 months - that is something that conservatives jumped on and spun to fit their agenda - Obama has ALWAYS maintained he would withdraw the troops from Iraq in 16 mths and beef up the troop levels in Afghanistan - you unfortunately weren't listening, as usual, and heard what you wanted to hear then jumped all over it, parrotting Rush and the whacks on the right.  I encourage ANYONE to find one single time where Obama stated he would bring troops HOME in 16 months and not move them to Afghanistan/Pakistan where the war on terror is really being fought. 

Simpletons!

Lifes about choices..... choice in this case is.....Let innocents dies or make life uncomfortable for a few thugs?

Unless you willing to give up your SON or DAUGHTER...dont ask others to.

JimC  and Ohiogal...which member of your family you ready to allow die ...in the name of rights for Thugs held at gitmo?

Hey Deb-

What lies have been told?  I'm sure you know more about the situation than Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice.  I'm sure you were better infomed than they were in getting daily security briefings and risk assessments. 

Truth is...you don't know squat.  The fact is that America has not suffered another terrorist attack, thanks in large part to the people on your list.  If that was accomplished by cutting off fingers one at a time, I'm fine with that.  I just hope PEBO has the backbone and the commitment to do the same, but I doubt it.  If he or anybody believes that diplomacy or negotiation is a viable tactic with these madmen, God help us all.

you seem to forget that 911 happened on BUSH's watch, meaning he DID NOT keep america safe.

perhaps if bush wasnt on vacation for 4 months in the first 8 months of his term, we wouldnt have been attacked.

Yeah Mike- Bushshould have been standing at the airports with his gun and shot them before they boarded. Wait a minute- Maybe Clinton should have had Osama shot instead of photographed when he had his chance. Just so you know Mike, I am being sarcastic in case you can't understand that either. Blame it all on Bush you moron.

that's right - everything that happened from 2001-2004 was Clintons fault and everything since has been Obama's.  Bush is squeaky clean!  Can't blame him for a darn thing.  Everything the man has done and said has been PERFECT!  Nothing could ever be the current president's fault.

Guess what - since you're all hanging onto that pathtic right-wing talking point about Bush keeping us Safe for 8 yrs - under that logic Clinton kept us safe, here on the "Homeland" for 8 yrs from the attack on the WTC in 1993.  And under the same logic, since 9/11 was Clinton's ANY attack that happens on Obam's watch is Bush's fault for not capturing the people responsible for the attack that hasn't happened!

What don't you people get about these people - they plan on a large and time consuming scale and they have a much longer attention span than us and their goal is to attack us each time we elect a new leader - to TEST us - just as they did with Clinton and just as they did with Bush.

oh, 9-11 was seven years ago, not eight. That means we have been "safe" for seven years...that is unless you don't count 2001.

Yeah Mike- Bushshould have been standing at the airports with his gun and shot them before they boarded.

Tim - No, he should have handled it months before that -- like the day he read (or didn't read) the Presidential Daily Breifing about bin Laden wanting to attack in the US.  He never even looked in to it.

Folks, the results of ANY interrogation technique are questionable when viewed in a vacuum.  Abusive treatment can result in the subject saying anything to stop the hurt.  It can also cause them to hold out longer.  Positive reinforcement can result in exactly the same thing.  The objective is to collect aas many pieces as possible to discern the whole picture.

Torture? I went through SERE in the late '70's and much worse was done to me in training. Thankfully, I was never in a real-world situation to have the chance to find out if it helped or not. (Nat Amer Combat Nam Vet,  you and I could probably sit back over beers and LAUGH at it now)!  Come to think of it, I've probably PAID for worse treatment.  I do notice that no one seems to notice Ms. Crawford's final quote,

"...There's no doubt in my mind he would've been on one of those planes had he gained access to the country in August 2001," Crawford said of Qahtani, who remains detained at Guantanamo. "He's a muscle hijacker. . . . He's a very dangerous man. What do you do with him now if you don't charge him and try him? I would be hesitant to say, 'Let him go.' " "...It's a decision that President Obama must make"

So, we have a judge who is convinced beyond a doubt that this man is a risk to Society, yet believes his treatment was 'torture', and hopes the President-elect will make the right decision.  yeah, THIS will turn out alright.

Sounds like the solution is to try him.  Oh, wait, we cant.  None of the evidence is admissible.  So, whose fault is it if he is let go? 

Whatever it takes! The principal purpose for government is to keep the citizens of that nation safe. That is why nation states were formed.

Whatever it takes!

You're absolutely right......... If they're so "peaceful", why are they not marching in the streets protesting terrorism?

helenahandbasket - Your comment:

"If they're so "peaceful", why are they not marching in the streets protesting terrorism?"

Great question.  That would be a genuine and unifying cause for the left to spend their time on.  They would get support from all sides.

Unfortunately they are more focused on hating America and being anti-everything associated with it than anything else.  The specific issue really has nothing to do with it - they will take up any cause in furtherance of such efforts.
Katz

BRAVO!!!!!!If only our government would listen to the people...you have just said what so, so many Americans feel...thank you!

you have spoken the truth, the whole truth so help us GOD.

One more American that agree's with you!

You pretty much said it all.  The alternative isn't even worth thinking about. 

Some minor (in your eyes, I'm sure) considerations:

1)  You have to determine who are the "American hating Muslems [sic]"  (And, by the way, in case you didn't know, hating America is currently not a crime.)

2)  You have to have a process to punish them ie laws

None of you blood-thirsty people seem to have any appreciation for the above.  I'm reminded of the rabble who form a lynch mob in a Western--a bunch of shouting and muttering but nothing of any real substance being said.

Rich..VERY poignant message!

You should have wanted to hit back when they killed JFK.

People read up, watch and get a better idea what the Bush's really are about.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4315024059102108031&q=Kennedy+Assassination&total=1923&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=3

http://www.angelfire.com/ky/ohwhy/Bush.html

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/09_18_01_bushbin.html

http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=bin_laden_family

http://www.lizmichael.com/bushykno.htm

http://www.hereinreality.com/familyvalues.html

http://www.angelfire.com/ky/ohwhy/Bush.html

http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/bush.htm

Hit back who?  JFK was killed by one of your own.  Oswald was a liberal if you will-an avowed communist that also hated his country.  To his credit- he at least tried to emmigrate to the Soviet Union.  You liberals should do the same- move to the Islamist state of your choice.

Rich,     I can't imagine what it must have been like to actually witness, in person, the devil's work on 9-11.  We did not respond to this cowardly attack in an appropriate manner.  Not one member of the free world's militaries should have touched the soil of the countries guilty of supporting the attack... only nuclear weapons.  By the way, I include Saudi Arabia at the top of the list.  The radical Islamist governments should have ceased to exist on 9-11.  As far as torture goes, I don't care if our intelligence gatherers cut off one body part at a time if it will save even one innocent life from these animals.  This is not about the moral high ground.  This about the survival of our nation and the rest of the free world.

well put why are we providing right to people who are not citizens, and who are terrorists

What about if some of the prisoners are innocent and by torturing them they will confess to any crime you can think of. We have 2.6 million people in prison here in America, more then China or the Soviet Union, and a lot of them are also innocent. They are the ones without money.

"and a lot of them are innocent also" ???  

I know every now and then we hear where someone was cleared because of DNA samples not available originally, but not sure where u get your info that a "lot" of the people in prison are innocent.

Rich, my heart poors out to you. The pain is real for many of us.  Your last sentance "The question is what level of innocent lives we are willing to accept, and how mad do we have to get again before we change our rules of engagement" is one that plagues this country because of it sense of fair play.  As a nation, we find it difficult to believe that there are really entire countries out there that would love to see us destroyed - down to the last child killed.  We just can't imagine it.  I think, as you do, that we will be hit again.  I however think it will be much much worse, with hundreds of thousands dead.  When that happens - we will finally come face to face with the decission of what to do.  Unfortunately, I think the vast majority of our country men have no fever for liberty, just for security.  They will overwhelm those of us who love God and country and will capitulate to the enemy in hopes of peace.  I pray I'm wrong but I think we're headed down a very dark path that will lead to the destruction of many.